Episode 47: Triggering Jane Austen topics #AwkAustenAug
As a fun AwkAustenAug episode this year we thought we would do another Jane Austen unpopular opinions ep, specificlly on topics myself and Caily may find triggering.
Is Mr Knightley out of line? Is Lizzy Bennet Patronising? Is Elinor Dashwood annoying? Was Maria Bertram justified in cheating on Mr Rushworth?
We are pulling hot takes from Reddit and also Instagram as a few of you shared your thoughts over there. So grab a warm drink and a blanket and join me and Caily for a fun discussion on some of your hot takes!
Where can you find Caily? Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope Episode 2: A defence of Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility Episode 5: Discussing Jane Austen's most awkward characters #AwkAustenAug Episode 7: Jane Austen Villain off 2021 | Wickham v Willoughby with Caily and Ellis Episode 9: The power of the letter in Jane Austen's work Episode 12 & 13: Placing Austen's Heroines into Harry Potter Houses. Episode 22: Villain 2022 | Caroline Bingley v Isabella Thorpe Episode 28: The other Jane | A Jane Bennet Character Study Episode 37: Unpopular opinions Episode Episode 44 & 45: Cross Novel Matchmaking
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Hi, janeites, and welcome back to the what the Austin podcast. Kaley's back on the pod and we thought we'd do kind of another unpopular opinions episode Hot Takes but specifically for Awkward Austin August, which me and Kaley started like a few years back. It was basically just memes and funny posts to begin with, but it's going to be an episode now. I think we did another Awkward… we did another Awkward Austin August episode at one point, didn't we? I can't even remember. Yeah, we did, and it was like the awkward scenes in the adaptations, do you remember?
Oh my gosh, that was so much fun. You'd even cue the music to the scene so we can hear the scenes. I remember I got really fired up about Mr Collins and was saying how much of a villain I thought he was versus a buffoon. So yeah, that was a really fun one.
That was a fun one. I don't think we did one last year, I can't really remember. But yeah, we're back. We're doing another one in because the Unpopular Opinions episode was so popular. So thanks everyone for listening into that. We thought we'd go on the same kind of path, but looking at more kind of triggering statements. So let's just get everybody hot and riled for this one. Obviously, grab a drink and a blanket and be cozy, but also be ready to be triggered, because we picked some. Well, I definitely picked some crazy ones. I don't know about you, kayleigh.
You wanted to do some Unpopular Opinions that might make me very angry because you know I wouldn't agree with them and vice versa.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing that I was hunting out. Anything that was, like you know, soft, I was like no, no friends. I'm looking specifically for triggering topics here, like browsing Reddit, like what's going to trigger Kayleigh the most.
Oh my gosh I can't wait to see it.
I know Now I feel like I've hyped myself up too much. If this doesn't trigger, you're like, I totally agree with this person, I'm going to be like I don't even know you at all. Oh my God.
I know, will we still be friends after this if you find out my deep, darkest secrets about Austin?
I know I'm like revealing too much to myself. Truly, I'm a nice person. I'm just here like I want to trigger my friend, but I don't know who wants to. Do you want to kick off with one of yours or do you want me to kick off with one of mine? You go for it.
I want to hear one of yours.
Okay. So I pulled this one from Reddit and it says I'm really trying to like Eleanor but good grief, it is an uphill battle. I know some people love her but I just can't. Maybe I'm applying too modern standards to her, but the little lies, consistent criticism of Marianne and not telling people things really great on me is great. I don't know. I don't say great, but I guess that's right. She seems highly disapproving of Marianne and every turn it upsets her when her mother talks of Edward but then doesn't tell her mother about what's happened. She wants Marianne to accept Colonel Brandon, a man she clearly isn't interested in. I love the book but she really ruins it for me by being so miserable, frustrating all the time.
Wow, you really, I can normally at least try to see the other side. I 100,000, I just I completely disagree, like I'm so curious. Okay, so she, this person said that they did read the book. They're not going off of one of the adaptations.
Yeah, they love the book. They love the book. They just yeah. They're just not a fan of Eleanor, Not a fan at all.
I just I think everything about that description is just like objectively raw. Can you read that description?
Come on, that's funny. Okay, I know some people love her but I just can't. Maybe I'm applying too modern standards to her. But the little lies, consistent criticism of Marianne and not telling people things really great on me, which I can kind of get that she is quite harsh about Marianne. Like think about the scene where she's like talking about Marianne to Brandon and she is being quite critical and Brandon even says to her like don't, don't like force change upon your sister. Like the things that you love about your sister are kind of maybe the things that a little bit out there. Do you know what I mean? Like if you change people's unique characteristics because they maybe don't fall in line with what you think are good characteristics, then you use, you lose their personality. So maybe that's kind of the angle that I come in, because she can be kind of harsh. I can kind of see this a little bit.
Oh gosh, I think she's so justified in being in being a little bit tough. I'm glad the person who wrote this said maybe I'm taking a more modern view, because I think we have to take into account the sense of propriety. Back then for behavior Like now. It wouldn't be a big deal for someone to go to their boyfriend's house alone, but when Marianne and Willoughby go off to Willoughby's, to Allynem, that is such that is so improprietist if they're not engaged right. And so I think she is harsh sometimes but I think it comes from a place of concern for Marianne's well-being. And also Eleanor is under so much stress because they say very much that Marianne is is so similar to her mom. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So Marianne and her mom are understandably grieving Like she's just lost her father. But Marianne just dwells in that in such a self-absorbed way and Eleanor is the one who has to quietly deal with all of the practical logistics. She has to. She has to keep like making sure that Marianne doesn't do all of this really improprietist kind of embarrassing stuff to the family. And I don't know. I think in the 1980 adaptation Eleanor comes across as really cold. And I remember when I was a little girl watching this. I preferred Marianne to Eleanor and I thought she didn't have feelings. But in the book I have so much more compassion for her because you see how much she loves Edward. You see how she's struggling and like what a sensitive soul she is. But she feels like she's head honcho in the house and she has to be the one to deliver the tough news, like to downsize On these houses her mom is looking at to tell her mom, hey, we only can afford something like a Barton cottage. So I think she and yeah, anyway, I'll let you respond to that first.
Yeah, no, I have a few thoughts. I do get that about the money. Like she's almost forced into being the villain. I think in like some of the situations, Like if you think about the horse scenario, like Willie B turns up with the horse and yes, that's a nice gift, but only if the people you're giving it to you can actually afford to fund a horse. Like the point that Eleanor was saying you can't take a horse because we don't have the money to feed it. We'd have to get like an extra pair of hands in to help look after it. And it's kind of sad because then Marianne's like you're also like awful for doing this, but the way that Eleanor sees it is, she's like I mean practical, because we're not going to go into like destitution because you want a horse, that's just all like because your boyfriend's brought you a horse. That's just not practical at all. So she's kind of by other characters is kind of forced into kind of this more rigid position I think coming across as like not very nice. Another thought I had I loved what you said about like Willoughby and Marianne, like how they're so inappropriate at times. In my tarry deck that I have the chariot is represented in. It's like Marianne and Willoughby, you know, when they're like belting it through everywhere on there.
Like cars or whatever, and they're just like going around town and I live in one of the adaptations. They like nearly knock some people over and stuff, and I think that's so true. Like they are so fast energy they're so it's just extreme. It's just you know too much, isn't it? It's in too public. And I do understand by Eleanor. In comparison he's been so private about her emotions. I get that. I think maybe some of it might be a bit of jealousy as well, Like Marianne can be so open, so out there with her feelings, and Eleanor can't do that because you know Lucy steals in the way with Edward and she doesn't even know if Edward actually has feelings for her and everything. So I can kind of see being forced to be reserved as well. Would probably put me in a bad mood too.
Yeah, exactly I love what you said about the horse. I think I see Eleanor as probably not wanting to play this role, but being the practical one, and she's reacting to other people, being thoughtless and kind of self absorbed. You're exactly right. When I was younger, reading this I was like, oh my gosh, it's so romantic. Willoughby got her a horse. Eleanor is being such a diva and it's no, they couldn't take care of the horse. That would have been a huge burden on the family and Willoughby was thoughtless to not think that. Through so much more on rereads, I feel for Eleanor, like I'm sure Eleanor doesn't want to be the bearer of bad news, but who's going to stay down to earth? It just feels like Eleanor is surrounded by a lot of really thoughtless characters and she's having to be the tough one.
I was just going to like push back on that though, because, like I think they made another good point where it says it upsets her when her mother talks of Edward, but then doesn't tell her mother about what happened, and I think that's really fair. It makes me think about the when Elizabeth says in Pride and Prejudice, where she's like I could have prevented like some of this if I'd been open, like if I'd actually talked about what was going on. You can't criticize people if you don't tell people like what you're struggling with. Do you know what I'm saying? That you can't be upset and angry at people for triggering you if they don't know that what they're saying is a trigger, because people can't read your mind. You know, like they don't know that Edwards with Lucy, because Lucy's, you know, decided to tell Eleanor and feel really awful about it, like they don't know that. And do you know what I mean? Like Eleanor keeps so much to herself but then is like so hurt by things and I'm just like well, eleanor, you're kind of keeping it private, and I mean why at the end today? I mean Lucy is the worst. Just spill her beans, just spill her secrets. For sure she's just like such an awful person, but I guess I do get that Eleanor doesn't do that for reasons. What have you? But yeah, I'm just like.
Yeah, I think that's a very, very good point. I that's frustrated me before too, but then the reason I truly understand it is because Mary Ann and Mrs Dashwood are so open and so effusive about things Like Mary Ann wants Eleanor to show affection for Edward in the way that she shows affection for Willoughby, like even when remember that part of the book where Mary Ann is making fun of Eleanor for saying I think very highly of him and Eleanor where is your heart or just basically criticizing Eleanor for not being very effusive with her feelings and Eleanor just has a different disposition. So if she's not sure about her status with Edward, especially with him being far away and non-communicative, I can see her not wanting to talk about him and I can see it being very painful for Mrs Dashwood and Mary Ann to keep asking about him. And I could see that she'd be afraid if she disclosed too much, that they'd latch on to it and just make it more emotionally painful for her. So with regards to Edward, I completely understand why she didn't tell them. Regarding Lucy, I remember thinking oh my gosh, why the heck would you not tell your sister about this? Why would you keep this to yourself? You owe nothing to Lucy. But again, I think there's something with the times where if someone discloses a secret to you, no matter who they are Eleanor and Edward, which I think is why they're a good fit. They both care a lot about honor, so Eleanor is resentful that Lucy thrust this information upon her. But when Lucy asks Eleanor to keep a secret, I think Eleanor felt that it had to be the honorable thing to keep it private, even though it's so annoying. She has to carry it on her own and she can't tell anyone.
Oh my gosh, after you've just said all that, I've literally just been like hitting the face, like feel like a hypocrite, because yeah, that's so true. I just thought about myself in that situation. I'm like, when you were describing it, I was like you know what that actually just sounds. Like me. I would do that. I would just keep it to myself and I'd just be like just wallowing my own sadness, like it's okay, I'm so sad, and then people would say stuff and trigger me and I'll just be like it's okay. But yeah, no, I agree, I think, yeah, it would be hard to just like disclose that. And also, I don't think I'd want to, because if you say something out loud, sometimes you make it real, and with that I don't think I'd want to make it real. I'd be like I just want to live in my delusion a little bit longer, like I know that he's engaged this other person, but I don't want to accept it. So I'm just going to not talk about it to anybody, because then it's not real.
Exactly, I totally relate to that. And I totally relate to that. And there have been times too where I have shared personal, vulnerable things with friends and Then, when they bring it up again, if it's not in a super gentle way, it actually is more painful. So I just totally relate to how she is. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right way to operate, but maybe it's the right way to operate for her, and I don't think it comes from a place of malice. I think it comes from a place of self-preservation during an extremely stressful and uncertain time.
Yes, yes, I knew that one was going to get you though.
I read it and I was like oh my gosh, screenshot.
Oh my gosh, I was not expecting that, but I mean, yeah, okay. The last thing I want to say in defense of Eleanor and maybe we can pull up the exact quote is at the beginning, right around the time where they're explaining how Marianne is super talented and wonderful in every way, except governing her emotions and having self-regulation. It says the mother is a very similar way. There's a quote about Eleanor that said she has an affectionate heart, she felt things deeply but she knew how to govern her emotions. And I think at the end too, you see how deeply Eleanor feels when Edward proposes and she just loses it and weeps and can't you know, and lets all of those feelings out. So, if anything, I just have a ton of empathy and compassion for how much she's had to hold in.
Yeah, yeah, she really just hold everything together. To be fair, and I get that kind of we're not always perfect, are we? And I feel like when you carry in so much burden, at times it's just like, yeah, she's carrying everybody's burdens, even Lucy's. So I think at times I'd be like just the small things would probably book you and especially if your sister's behaving in a way that you don't think is appropriate for society, like by societal standards, I can see you just being like also, I love that she finds Brennan such a confident that she actually is open with him and can talk about stuff. You know, I kind of love that for her. She needs somebody like that in her life.
Yeah, I think we've mentioned this before, but it's also just super refreshing to see a straight guy and gal characters being friends. I don't know, it was just nice to have like a platonic friendship in the Austin novels. You can have a strong connection to someone and it doesn't always have to be romantic.
Yes, I love that. I love it. Okay, I'm ready for one of yours. Do you want to hit me?
Oh my gosh, I just don't, even, I don't, I've traumatized you.
Now is that it? You can't go on.
I just okay. Wow, I don't. I think I have so many. I could say I think Mr Palmer and Eleanor would have been a better match than Edward Ferris.
Yeah, is this really random.
He is so funny. Oh my God. To be fair, I honestly would want that guy in my life. I don't want to want to be married to him because he's just not a great partner, but I think about the way that he is in some of the adaptations and he is so fricking funny, like I actually love him. He's just so sarcastic and the comments that he makes are amazing.
Okay, I want to hear your argument to this because I'm just like wow this is so like, let's do it, yeah, okay, so my argument is I think that Eleanor and Edward will end up being happy together, but I think it's going to be she's sort of out of his league and she's managing him. I think she'll be content with. You know he wants to be a pastor and she'll organize everything for him. But I think Eleanor is one of the most impressive heroines and I think she's really intelligent. And I think Mr Palmer obviously you know he's described as being kind of a curmudgeon, but it's because he's his wife is so ridiculous. It's because he's with Charlotte and I'm blanking on her name. Who's the mother? Charlotte? And she's Jennings. Mrs Jennings, Charlotte and Mrs Jennings they are. They are so loud and obnoxious and giggling all the time. He's just. They have such a mismatch in disposition and I think Mr Palmer wouldn't be like that around someone who's super sensible like Eleanor. And he struck me as very intelligent and when everything's happening with Mary Ann, he jumps in and tries to offer them help and is pretty good friends with Colonel Brandon. So again, we don't get to know him that well, but I could imagine a different side of him coming out if he were with someone sensible like Eleanor and I. I did always. I do always think that Eleanor deserves to be with someone who's a little bit more confident, courageous and intelligent.
Yes, but also somebody who's a little bit more laid back. You know what five Mr Palmer's giving me right now? Chandler Bing, that is like the five he's giving me, and don't you think Eleanor has a lot of moniker energy where she's like the organizer, the host, she's always sorting everything for everyone, and Monica really values the fact that, obviously, chandler's a little bit more laid back so that she can kind of let her go down a little bit. Yes, I'm actually really shipping this now, and I don't even understand why fully. Um, yes, I also love what you said, though, about Edward and the fact that Eleanor would have to manage him like all the time, and how exhausting is that? Like, let's be clear, edward's not a man of action, is? He's a bit complacent, and I don't see that changing really. Like, I know it's like sweet that he wants like a simple life and stuff, but he's also like there's a, there's a. There's a line between, like you know, just being a bit lazy and wanting a simple life. You know it's like you've still got to be an active participant in the world. You know you can't just be like just want my chickens, that's it, and then just like let other people sort everything for you here.
Yes, I totally agree with that. I think I want to make a qualifier here that I think Edward in my two favorite sense and sensibility adaptations embraces the role really well and I like that version of Edward. He's sort of embellished and made better. But the Edward in the book is the biggest whiner on the planet, like boring whiny. And I'm just like, after everything Eleanor has been through, I think she deserves to be with someone chilled out, just like you said, and someone where there are fewer dramatics and someone who can show up for her too. Like I just imagine her sort of caretaking to Edward her whole life, which she'd be good at, but like I'd love someone who would have the social intelligence to attune back to her as well.
Yes, mm. Hmm, yes, who'd. Who'd have thought it? Eleanor and Mr Palmer are a vibe.
That was quite a random one, wasn't it? It was so random.
Honestly, I did not see that coming. That was the most random thing ever, but I kind of love it. Oh, I see, I do want me to throw one, oh yeah. What's next? Okay, okay, here we go. The hottest Jane Austen. Take this one's from Instagram that nobody really agrees with either. I really don't like Mr Knightley. He's so patronizing to me. I'll just give you a moment with that, mr Knightley, for everybody. Listening is Kayleigh's favorite. So Kayleigh's favorite is Tristan Mann.
You're like, I'm sitting here pouting and not responding. Okay, I have to begrudgingly say that I could see that take in certain instances, but it's definitely not the whole story. Mr Knightley, you know, does say things to Emma like badly done and he does lecture her, but frankly I think she kind of needs it and I think it's good for her. I think, and she, they just have the history of growing up together and you know, as you age the age difference isn't as dramatic. But think about how much older he was when she was a little kid and how that gap could have influenced their relationship. So I see how people say that. But I think it's more that he is so honorable that when he sees Emma not treating Mrs Bates well or not acting in an honorable way, he really wants to check her Because again, for that time propriety was so important in society. And so I think it comes from when he's chastising Emma. First of all. I think it helps her grow and be a better character. But I think it comes from a place of deep disappointment because he knows what a wonderful person she is and he knows what it is for her to be her best self. So I think it genuinely hurts him to see her get sidetracked and not be her best self, and so I think he just he shows up in this way. That's chastising her, but I think it comes from a place of deep care.
Yes, I feel conflicted on this. I can't work out whether it is inappropriate the way that he does Chastiser like. Is it inappropriate that he almost takes like a parent in role, like you know what I mean, considering they have feelings for each other? Is it appropriate the way that he goes about it? But then also, I'm like it's important to have a partner that challenges you. You know, if you're not showing up as your best self, like I'd like to think that a partner would say to me like I love you, but you know you're showing up wrong here, Like this is not right, like you're not behaving in the way that I know that you like the person that you are, or something. And then you know you can check yourself and be like oh my God, this is so terrible. You're right, I need to apologise, but I'm like does he go too far? Because there's one thing being like, saying it like that, and then there's one thing like shouting and being like badly done, badly done. Or like really hammering at home, you know, like till she cries. I'm like, is that maybe a bit too extreme for a partner, like for your other half?
Yeah, I think it's a fair, I think it's a really good question and I don't know. I have a very close friend who loves Austin, who feels the same way about Mr Knightley. She does think he's patronising. What I keep thinking about is I think it's fair that we have to factor in that Emma's family the woodhouses and Mr Knightley's family have been longstanding acquaintances and since Emma's mom has passed away, her governess, mrs Weston, has gotten married and then her dad is not super functional. He's this hypochondriac who fixates on illness and stuff. He can't really attune to Emma that. It is this thing where I think Mr Knightley thinks that Emma doesn't really have that parental guide and, as I say, apparently maybe that's creepy that they end up being romantic partners, but I think it makes sense that he feels like he wants to be the one to look out for Emma and check her because he knows that she doesn't really have another parent figure present to do that.
Yes, okay, this is interesting. I think it does actually matter how long you've known your partner. Now, if you've grown up with this person, I think there's a little bit more leeway there, like if I think there is something about like, if you've seen your partner, maybe it sounds really interesting. It just sounds a bit weird. But as a child, like even if you're both children, or as teenagers or what have you, and then you've watched somebody grow, I think there is a little bit more leeway there because you almost even if you were friends, you've almost played a part in that person's upbringing, and so there's a little bit of leeway as opposed to like, if you just meet somebody now, like as an adult, and they come into your life, then taking like this kind of like you know, high road stance is maybe just super inappropriate. So I think it matters how long you've known your partner, for what stages of life they've seen you in, because it kind of makes me think I don't know this is just because I've just watched this, but it makes me think about the notebook, and you know the argument that I don't. You've seen the notebook, right?
And you know the argument that Alia know I have, like just before, when she says like she's got to leave and she's like why would I stay? We always argue. And he's like that's what we do. We argue. They like you, tell me when I'm being an arrogance and blah, blah, blah. And I was like you know what? That's interesting as well, because they knew each other when they were younger. There's kind of more leeway and that's kind of what I was trying to get with the whole nightly and emmething. I think it depends what stages of life you've seen each other in to whether or not it's appropriate or not.
That is a really good point, because I think that's. I think that's right. I think Mr Knightley earns that right to check Emma because of their history together and it's very different than Mr Darcy coming in not having known Elizabeth and just starting to chastise and insult her, not having that background. So I'm glad, I am really glad you pointed that out. I think that's spot on.
Yeah, I kind of lived that one, though I lived this one. Through that out there I was literally just like yes, because I tried to find one where someone was like you know, not so hot on Mr Knightley. And then when one come up on Instagram, I was like yes, friend, thank you, you have delivered for me. That's what I was after.
So is he you really, eleanor? And Mr Knightley, you know me very well. I think that Susanna Harker does a better job with Jane Bennett than Rosamund Pike.
I don't necessarily disagree with this, I don't know. I kind of like both. So I'm literally just like how am I supposed to argue the toss here? I do like both of them.
To be clear, I like them. I like both too. I like that they both do a good job.
I think they take different approaches, though. Like I feel like Rosamund Pike is so soft with Jane and yes, I feel like that's one aspect of her character, but I actually love in the 1995 one that we see more of her strength. Do you like what we talked about in the Jane Bennett episode, where we were like actually Jane is kind of a bit of an Eleanor in the sense that she carries the weight of her family, and I kind of like that that's shown.
We're so on the same page with this. Okay, fine, this was not a shock factor. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I just think. I think you're right. I think they have different takes. I think Rosamund Pike does an excellent job with that softness. She has this wide-eyed, doe-eyed look. That's very naive and I think that captures one side of Jane Right, like that captures the way that Jane is sweet and humble and beautiful, all of that, like she really captures that. I think Susanna Harker has a more nuanced approach, that's more well-rounded and true to the book. I think you're exactly right that she is carrying the weight of her family on her shoulders. I think she has such subtle expressions, even when I love the addition to the 1995 version where Mr Collins is talking about how the death of Lydia would have been better than what Lydia did running off with Wickham, instead of having that be a letter like it is in the book. It's Mr Collins saying that to Jane and Lizzie and Jane puts her hand on. Lizzie's leg, so Lizzie doesn't like punch Mr Collins in the face and I just think I think Susanna Harker picks up or demonstrates a higher level of that social intelligence and just general intelligence that Jane does have but is not given enough credit for sometimes, that Jane definitely has but is not given enough credit for sometimes.
Yes, no, I agree. Yeah, I mean, isn't that that's the thing? That wasn't the 95 one just really just captured the characters so well in all their little nuances and they're just so much more rounded as opposed to in the 2005 one, which I do get, because they don't have the time to develop them in the same way. Yeah, I like both. I can't, I like both. I couldn't pick between the two of them. I do like both. They both fit their film TV show correctly, like you. It's a bit like the DOS. You couldn't flip them. It wouldn't make sense if you flipped them, you know. So I'm like, I do. Really I like them both, I do. And they also both fit their bingles really well. You know, can you imagine the opposite with the opposite bingles like that? Just no Strange? Maybe Rosamund Pike with, I don't think, the guy who plays him in 1995 version.
Maybe you could watch those two. You couldn't do the other way.
Yeah, like that, that the other guys like mom, like Rosamund Pike, gives kind of mom vibes to him as well.
So, like you know, sorry what is the actor's name for thing that we?
should find out what his name was. Terrible of that His name is like genuine. This is why we read books, because we can't remember no one's name.
We just want the character names.
I've got another one and a sense sensibility again. So sense sensibilities Kaylee's favorite, so I'm just throwing them out. Trigger her. Yeah, yeah, okay, and so the title for this one was sense sensibility on popular opinion. It was a hard read. However, it was a great experience. I was mad pissed that Eleanor didn't end up with Colonel Brandon rather than Edward. Whatever the case, she clearly had depth with Brandon and sorry not sorry Marianne didn't deserve Colonel Brandon.
I think I do agree that Eleanor and Colonel Brandon have a lot of depth to their conversations and communication, but it's such platonic friends vibes and again, I love that. I love that they can be platonic friends. I don't think that was super common for that time. If it's two single people, I yeah. I just don't think there's a romantic spark there and I think they'll have a great relationship with him with his being married to Marianne. There's just nothing romantic between the two of them and Marianne. Marianne is pretty self-absorbed and dramatic at the beginning of the novel, but I think we have to make some allowances for her, given that she was 16 years old. You know, like Willoughby was her first love. Who's not self-absorbed at that age, who doesn't make mistakes? And Colonel Brandon was a more seasoned person, who'd been through more, who was obviously more mature, who had already had a first love. I think that I think that Marianne needed time to evolve over the novel and I think I think I've said this before I think she and Emma have the most character development and I think we have to allow her even though she really annoys me sometimes I think we have to allow her that space to grow and I think it ends up being a good, a good relationship, and she is in a place to be happy with Brandon Even at the beginning. It shows that they both have similar tastes in music, they both have similar intellectual interests and abilities, and so I think, if we can get over the age factor, which was more acceptable for that time and would probably be creepy now not probably would be creepy now I think that they're. Marianne and Colonel Brandon are actually maybe not my favorite match, maybe not the most romantically charged or sexy match, but I think they're actually. They actually are a better fit together than Eleanor and Colonel Brandon would be.
Okay, I have a couple of thoughts. One of them is a whole other episode that we've got to do where I was reading this book. It's all about like using intuition and stuff. But there was this great point about the four characteristics that you kind of are looking for in a partner or just any relationship really. But you know, the more of these that you can take off, the better. And it was kind of like mine spirituality, physical and was your form? Well, with emotional, we should definitely do an episode where we see like which couples tick like the boxes for each other. That would be so fun. That'll come in the future, guys. But my other thought was do you think that people try and ship Brandon and Eleanor more because we don't see much of Eleanor and Edward's relationship develop, like I feel like there's so much privacy to them, like falling in love compared to Willoughby and Marianne. It's like what do we really see of it? It's like a couple of chapters, then she goes away and I know and understand that she's got the really strong feelings. But it's like a reader, are we fully invested in that?
I think that's a good point and I actually my feeling about it is a similar vibe, but instead of it being that Edwards away so much, it's more. It's more that Colonel Brandon and Eleanor are talking so much but Colonel Brandon doesn't talk to Marianne that much throughout the novel, Like he's very much observing Marianne and talking about Marianne to Eleanor, whereas they don't have that much. I think that should be a little bit more. And again, we have to take into account the times and maybe different societal nor. I don't really know, but I don't really know why they do it. But I do think Jane Austen could have developed Marianne and Colonel Brandon a little bit more leading up to them getting together, and I think they could have had more scenes where they're actually having dialogue with one another. Because, yeah, I found that a little weird at times that it's always Eleanor and Colonel Brandon talking about Marianne but not Colonel Brandon talking to Marianne.
I kind of like that she doesn't give them much air time, because I feel like the point is, like Marianne's journey is that she well, I just think that that's the story in general is kind of like maybe the person you the really romance, like the Knight of Cups guy isn't necessarily the person that you're going to end up with. Maybe you end up with a more laid back, stable person that you didn't necessarily anticipate you would. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I'm just like for someone like you know what I'm saying. I feel like Jane Austen demonstrates to us that everybody's on different paths and you end up with different people. Just because one person ends up with Wemworth doesn't mean that you're going to end up with a Wemworth. Maybe you end up with a Brandon and that's not necessarily bad. You can still have a loving, happy relationship. My point is it's like I think it shows that there are different types of love and not everything is the overly romantic one, but it's still meaningful and that's kind of what I like about sense and sensibility.
I feel like it does show that Even though I'm here like I'd want to went with over a Brandon, but yeah, I, I like that argument, for Mary Ann has to fall in love with Willoughby, she has to go through that experience of being immersed in first love. She has to have that moment early on where she respects Brandon, but then he has to be in the background and she has to go on her journey of evolution, character evolution, and maybe she needs Colonel Brandon to be a steady presence in the background and then they come back together when she's ready. So I like that, I like that argument, I like that idea and I keep thinking again. I think Colonel Brandon and Mary Ann have the foundation of similar taste and interests and then she has the liveliness and joie de vivre that he needs because he you know he's he's been through a lot and kind of tracks pretty depressed, I would say and then he has the stability that she needs in the measuredness. So I think they're a good combination of similar interests but then also opposite attract in the ways that they need.
Yeah, yeah, and also on the other side of it we've already like said that maybe Alan or an Edward, you know, on a match made in heaven, like they don't necessarily dream country match, I feel like sense of sensibility just isn't that story though. I just feel like it isn't the I don't know. For me it's not like Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion where it's like like die hard, like romance, where you're like swimworthy, you know, like Darcy's, all of his like acts of service to secure Elizabeth, in Wentworth's words of affirmation, like in his letter. Do you know what I mean? Like? I feel like, yeah, it's so much more subtle in sense of sensibility. There's so many more molehills and complications that they have to go through. They aren't so glamorous, you know like Willoughby breaking Marianne's heart is not glamorous at all. That is tragic and horrific, but I kind of get why it's every like a lot of people's favorite book because it's also so real to like. Do you know what I mean? Like people have Willoughby's, like it happens.
Yeah, that's. You know we all want to read the story of, you know, mr Darcy's Mr Darcy doing everything for Elizabeth saving the day, rescuing the family. You know we want to soon to captain Wentworth's letter and the angst of being separated from your love coming back together. But and I love those stories and I would never take anything away from them I love reading those love stories and they are very dramatic and charged and I think it's important and very realistic to also have the love stories and sense and sensibility portrayed too, because even though it's not glamorous how Willoughby ends things and how devastated Marianne is their initial relationship is so like. They're both so attractive, they're both so romantic, they're reading poetry to each other, they're playing music together, they're always everybody together, every ships them right, like they are the dramatic couple. And then I don't know. I think it's good messaging that that doesn't always last and that's not always the real type of love, that that is good for you and that sustains you, and that sometimes it can be someone who's slow and steady and loyal in the background who comes in and is the best match for you and you don't even notice they're there until all of a sudden you see them in a new light, like that feels very real.
Oh, I thought you were just going to leave it. You just don't notice. They're there and I'm thinking.
That is just side characters. Mr Palmer swooping in, that's so funny.
But yeah, no, I agree, I agree, I'm going to pass it back to you. I want to hear one of yours.
Okay, hmm, I have a couple Okay from Reddit. I don't blame Mariah for cheating on Mr.
Rushworth. Oh, oh, my God. Oh, no, sorry, I am so untie cheated. I think it's the worst thing you can do to somebody. No, I have no sympathy for Mariah. Her father gave her an out of that. She solely married him for money, and it's wrong. It was wrong, okay. Also, I'm not being funny, but her plan like not a plan B, but the person she actually was physically attracted to, like the person that she had passion for, wasn't poor. So what was she even doing Like it wasn't? Like she fell in love with the stable hunt. Like you know, she was Henry Crawford. He has his own fortune. He was fun and her dad said to her that you don't have to marry Mr Rushworth. We all know he's a bit of a numpty and she was like no, I want to marry Rushworth. It's like why are you just setting yourself up for failure and to hurt him? And I feel like that was just terrible. No, no, no sympathy for Mariah. And then she ends up with Henry anyway. She just runs off with him and ruins her whole life and then ends up living with Mrs Norris. It just, the whole thing just sucks, no.
Is he? It finally happened. I've heard you use the word numpty on other podcast episodes, but never with me, and it just finally happens. You called someone a numpty, and what better character than Mr Rushworth. I'm ecstatic right now.
I'm so happy. I never thought this would be the topic that would get me right it's always Montesville Park. Oh my God, it always gets me right.
I wanted to do one that was like Sanny is the best heroine and the most generous, kind, wonderful character. I didn't see that. Get you all round up. Anyway, sorry not to sidetrack, but okay. So again, cheating is wrong. I do not condone cheating Mr Rushworth. I couldn't live with him and I think if she did this it's wrong. What she did definitely, and I just wonder if she actually felt like she did have an out. I think for that time when you make a promise like that and I think there were Women had fewer opportunities to meet different men. Mr Rushworth is actually supposed to be richer than Mr Darcy.
He is the richest. He's the richest, he's the richest man in all of the books.
Wow, yeah, and I'm not saying you do that to someone and you shouldn't do that to someone for their money, but I don't know. I could see if I felt totally obligated to Mr Rushworth. I could see myself feeling really miserable and feeling swept up by someone, by this handsome, charming, intelligent guy.
I think what she did was wrong and I don't condone her actions, but I also don't 100% vilify her. I kind of feel sorry for her a little bit on some level, really.
But why. I mean, what is her reason? And I really don't get it. I get that he is the wealthiest man, but she's not coming from poverty herself. She's not like in the Bennett situation where their estate's gonna be entailed away, that her family have money. She's young, like apparently one of the most beautiful people in their area, and she's already drawn the attention of another guy who she's actually attracted to. What reasons does she have to marry Mr Rushworth? I do not understand it at all. And also of all the people that could say to you you can get out of this, I feel like the person that's gonna hold the most power is your father. Who else is gonna be able to stop a wedding other than your dad? Like your dad's gonna be. Like I actually changed my mind. It's a no from me. You know what I mean. Like that would just be it. That wouldn't be her fault. She'd be like sorry, my dad's just. He's fickle, he changed his mind. Do you get what I'm?
saying Like what reasons.
Why would she need to marry him? I don't understand.
Yeah, I see, when you say it like that and now I'm flashing back you're right. Her father did say she could get out of it and I do remember not liking the competitive nature between the sisters and I do think she wanted to be the bell of the ball, she wanted attention from multiple men, she wanted to be feel more sought after than Julia. So I'm not saying she's a kind person, a sweet person. Yeah, I don't know, maybe I agree with you. I do remember there was some part of when I was reading feeling bad that she was stuck with such a boring oaf and I don't know why. But yeah, yeah, she doesn't do the right thing and I don't. Again, I don't condone her actions.
She was even worse about it, from my perspective as well. I feel like she actually paw at her Marys Rushworth just to get a rise out with Henry, like I feel like she does it to make the chase bigger. Does that make sense? You know Henry loves a chase. That's why he gets like originally goes for Fanny, because he's like, oh, she's like she'll be a really hard person to catch. And I actually feel like part of Mariah's like whole scheme with it is that she wants to kind of bait him a little bit and I hate that even more. Like, can you imagine marrying somebody just to bait somebody else? That's just awful.
Yeah, she, I think that's fair to she does it for a pride thing, Like I'm trying to remember again. Mansfield Park is my least favorite of all the Austin novels, so I'm just a tiny bit rusty on this one. Does she agree to marry Rushworth while Henry's still interested, or is it when he's shifted interest to Fanny and is kind of pulling away?
I'm pretty sure her father gives her an out around the same time as the play, like maybe just after that. So they've been getting really hot and steamy and I genuinely think she does it as like a way to bait it, because Henry's not the easiest person to keep the attention of. Do you know what I mean?
Like he just likes it for fun.
He's just like I'll go wherever. What's fun. Like I love to just chase women. Mary even says that at the start. She's like my brother is a horrible flirt Like he. It's a game to him. Obviously it's not a game with Fanny in the end, because he actually just formed feelings for her, but I think my ride does it to keep him interested. And it works, he goes back for her. He goes back for her Cause he's like oh yeah, this is a good chase again now, and obviously then leaves her again and she ends up with Mrs Norris. Which perfect punishment for somebody like that.
Right. Yeah, they both do very immoral things. I remember feeling, getting a cringy feeling about how both of them were behaving. Yeah, I think she, the two of them love the thrill of the chase and choose themselves over the feelings of other people. I'm not arguing with you there at all. I do think he ends up having authentic feelings for Fanny, though, for sure.
Yeah, I think so. I think he does as well. I think he surprises himself with them. But I think he does Like he actually does care for Fanny. People always like no, he doesn't Cause, then why would he go for Mariah? But I'm like Fanny gives him absolutely no, like no, encouragement at all. You know he actually goes out the way to go and visit her and like what, like Portsmouth or something, and like this little tiny like two bedroom house where she's got like 10,000 siblings and things Like he goes out of his way to see her and she just like is not interested at all because she's interested in Edmund. But he doesn't know that. So he's just like, well, I couldn't kind of get him going for Mariah. I think Mariah is like a new, but what's? What's Henry got to lose? Henry is single, fanny's not interested in him. I don't see how he's in the wrong for going for Mariah. Yes, she's married, but you know she could have been like it's gone to a husband and said this guy is back around flirting with me, trying to get with me, like what we're going to do about it. And Mr Rushworth would be like get on your horse and go. What are you doing here. You know like actually I don't want to blame the woman in the situation, but I don't see the ways in which Mariah holds up morals at all.
Oh, I don't think she holds up morals at all. I do think he's very much at fault too, like he know, I don't know. Yeah, I think they're both at fault. Oh, my God, that was such a good one there. That was a good one. You were on fire. I was like I can't argue with you on this, like you're right, you're definitely right.
So the next one that I have is one that came off Instagram. Thank you guys for sharing some of your thoughts for this episode. I love it when that happens, because you guys always shock me and I'm always just like, oh my gosh, this is some hot takes anyway. So this one was from Annie, thank you. It says Mr Darcy often showcased some creepy qualities and Elizabeth and him are not the best match. I love that.
Oh, man, okay, I need to sit with that one again. Read it one more time.
Okay, let me get it back up then. No, I'm just kidding. Mr Darcy often showcased some creepy qualities and Elizabeth and him are not the best match. I don't know what that's in like context to you. That could be not the best match across the books, or they're just not the best match in general. They're just not a good match.
I see an argument for half of that statement. I think Mr Darcy does do some not necessarily. I can see how they come across as creepy, like there are, when he's meditating on a pair of fine eyes. I do think there's a lot of parts of the book where he doesn't directly approach Elizabeth and is kind of just either standing near her or creepily staring at her, and they really exaggerate that in the 1995 version. There are so many times where he's just across the room staring at her or just coming up and overhearing part of her conversation, standing creepily next to her without acknowledging her. And then, on my reread of the book, I'm like, okay, no, he does do that, like he does that a lot. So I can see how that comes across as creepy. But the reason I think the intent isn't creepy is I think he's shy, he has some social anxiety, he's interested in her and he doesn't wanna be. So I think it's more of him being an introvert, Like just as he comes across as being kind of haughty and above everyone else, I think when he's meeting everybody at the ball and is standoffish, a lot of that comes from a place of being an introvert and just like he said, I don't recommend myself to strangers Like he's not as naturally effusive and good at connecting with people as Mr Bingley. So, yeah, so I get it, but I also I think that's too harsh. I don't think he's actually a creep. I think Mr Collins is a creep.
Yeah, for me I struggle with the word creepy in relation to Mr Dorsey. Rude, definitely, like God. Some of the stuff he says is just completely rude. I was actually rewatching the scene from the 1995 on, like his first proposal, which really does capture the book as well. He is so rude in that and that's kind of creepy actually. Like can you imagine somebody showing you so much like disdain and just like being awful to you and just being like really weird, like up and down all the time and then turning up at your house and being like I love you so much, but also your family and friends and everything? It's all horrific and I'm going to get my own better judgments and I'd be like excuse me, are you lost? What is this? So yeah, I do think some of it is a bit creepy. Like he does have terrible social skills, really bad, which I guess can come across a little creepy at times. For sure I don't know. I don't know if I can see him as creepy. I don't know if I'm, if I'm fully, fully seeing that. For sure I'm not. Yeah, let me reread it again.
They're not the best.
They're not the best match either. I can't see her with anybody else in the book. In general, I think they're a good match. I can't see them not being a good match. I just see them as a good match. I'm not sure it's theirs, I don't know. What do you think?
Yeah, I. I think that was good you brought up the first proposal, because the only only way I can see him coming across as creepy is what I said about him staring at her and walking closer without talking to her. I don't think I think creepy is the wrong word. I don't think the first proposal is creepy, I just think, like you said, it's condescending rude. I think he's really angsty and he has these mixed feelings of feeling so passionately about her and it goes against this pretentious standard that he was brought up with. So he's a jerk to her in the first proposal and I think it shows a lot of self confidence and I really respect Elizabeth a lot for rejecting him in that first proposal. That can't have been easy given her, her financial circumstances and given her position in society at the time. Like Mr Darcy was the jackpot and he knew it, so he felt like he could talk to her in that way.
She made that point, like she literally says like I'm almost obligated to say yes, like because this is you and I just think that's so, but I'm still going to say no because I have you know standards, and I love that.
And that's part of what makes her the compelling heroine that she is. So so, yeah, I don't think he's creepy. I do think he's angsty and doesn't treat her well and I think he has a lot of evolution and proves himself to be the worthy person that he is. And I think they are. I think they're a good match. I think they're both extremely intelligent, I think they're both loyal. I think they're both committed to the people they love. I think there's a lot of romantic attraction and I, interestingly, can see Lizzie with someone else who's equally as witty but a little bit more playful, like. I think Lizzie and Darcy will have a pretty serious relationship and hopefully, because she likes to laugh and can be playful, she softens him a little bit, makes him a little bit less serious. But yeah, no, I think they definitely work together as a couple and I see them happy together.
Yes, wait, could you? You could see it with somebody else in the book.
Oh no, not in the book.
Sorry, I thought you were going to be like it's Fitz Williams. I was like I didn't see that. I don't. I don't hate. He's Williams kind of a cool guy. I kind of like him.
Yeah, he's such a nice, warm guy. I think I think Fitz Williams great. I think Elizabeth would get bored of him. No, it was more. I know we did our crossover episode where we talked about Harren's with characters from other Austin novels and I, yeah, I just for some reason I thought Lizzie and Henry Tony both are very witty and have a socially intelligent, have like a really nice similar sense of humor, so I could see her with someone equally as smart but but also has that playful side.
Do? I just thought that, as I don't see him as creepy. Do you want is really creepy when she's in the house and he turns back at home and she's in his house. That's creepy, that's like so disgusting. Honestly, honestly, what's like that, like after you've had all this awkwardness with somebody and then you're in their house and they just turn back up and you're like I'm lying in my head, just kill me now. Just kill me now.
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you brought that up. You're so right. That is so creepy. And even though for the time it it was acceptable to unannounced, in an unannounced way, visit those larger homes and look at the home, it was not acceptable even for that time that she go visit his house after she refused him. Oh my gosh, I feel so bad for him at that time. Yeah, that is creepy. That is amazing you brought that up. That's exactly what should be said right now. I find that more creepy than anything.
I kind of get why she was kind of forced as well. Like I could see that happening. Like you know, if you're with like family members and they're like why can't we go? And they don't know that you like you've got all this awkward like history with someone and you just like I Don't know why we can't go, let's go.
Yeah, I feel bad for her too, because she really thinks she's in the clear and then he comes back to do really. But it's an interesting point earlier with with the point about Eleanor being really secretive. I Understand how that reader was frustrated with Eleanor not disclosing things to people, and I actually get even more frustrated with Elizabeth, because Mrs Mr and Mrs Gardner are super reasonable people. So I'm like, oh my gosh, just why can't you tell them that he proposed to you? so that you don't have to like hold this all alone and or why wouldn't you tell Jane and I guess she was worried about Jane and Bingley, but anyway. So yeah, that's actually the part where I'm like, oh my gosh, lizzie, you do have to be so so private and carry this all on your own.
Yeah, mr and Mrs Gardner would have been fine with it. They actually see them, the two of them together and all that chemistry, and they still keep it to themselves. They don't tell anybody. They're not like going around Mariton, going like gosh, darcy and Lizzie, they've got stuff going on like nobody knows still, like it's just Mrs Gardner writing letters to Elizabeth like Like cheeky wink, like I know what's going on here.
Mrs Gardner could have been honest couldn't she?
she could have been like look like we have some awkward past, it's not, it's not good to go into his house. Obviously, we glad it did, because it's a major plot point and she needed that awkward moment where she bumps into him and everything. Also, I know that mr Darcy's like on his high horse all the time, but Lizzie's also a bit like that, so I love that it kind of knocks her down a few pegs, like when he and she's like oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. It's like yeah, you know, I feel you needed that to just even the playing field again, because you really just like I know he was really rude, but you've also just like shot him for ten, like With your refusal, like you've really like punched him in his ego. So I kind of love that she has that awkward moment and she's like I'm so embarrassed right now. But at least we're kind of on an even playing field again.
Wait, I love that you said that. I thought this was gonna be so controversial because my next one that I found was Lizzie Bennett can be annoying and pretentious sometimes. I don't know why everyone's so obsessed with her.
That is personal, but, yeah, I don't think it's necessarily wrong on all accounts. Like yes, lizzie is in the right the way that she refuses Darcy and I. She's absolutely in her right to be headstrong and be outspoken and say what she wants. That's why we love her as a modern audience, right. But she is also Kind of obnoxious at times and just like yeah, I think that these awkward moments she really needed them, like where she's just like you know, in Darcy's house and he sees her and that's like terrible and really embarrassing. Or the fact that she has to reconsider her thoughts on Darcy, the fact that she's wrong about Wickham, like these are all moments that she needs, because I feel like in many ways, she doesn't need to check herself as well. She doesn't know everything, even though she tries to come across like she does, and she needs a little bit of a reality check at times.
Yep, I think yeah, annoying and pretentious, I'm glad sometimes is in there. I think that's that's harsh. I think there's so much to love about Elizabeth. I love her self-respect, I love her loyalty to her family. I'm in total agreement with you. Good for her for refusing Mr Collins and Mr Darcy. Like, just because there's financial pressure on the family doesn't mean that she gets to sacrifice her happiness. And so I think she's a strong, care, opinionated character who needs to be respected. And she annoys me so much when she's so willing to believe everything Wickham says off the bat, not knowing him, just because he's handsome and charming and and flatters her. And I think a huge reaction to that is Mr Darcy slates her appearance and then Mr Wickham singles her out and so be. I get. I get why, but it's when she it does annoy me when she's so rigid about it and not even allowing for the possibility that Mr Wickham is not who he says he is, because there are so many different hints that Mr Wickham Doesn't follow through with what he says, like when he says that Mr you know, mr Darcy can run from me, I'm not gonna run from him, and he says he'll be at the Netherfield ball and he doesn't show up, and then he's oh my god, I know. Yeah, so she's smarter than that, but she lets her, like vanity, and her pride, get in the way from Appropriately sizing up the situation, even though generally, when she's not biased, she's actually a really good judge of character.
But, oh my gosh, that was so fun. I feel like we should probably wrap us up there, otherwise we'll be here for like ten hundred years, like usual.
But yeah, totally can't, did you?
see. Have you seen the Barbie movie?
Not yet. I have not got it yet. I've heard mixed things. Most people have talked to you said it was absolutely amazing.
There's a, there's a funny 1995 quote and like joking there, but there's like a cliff and everything and I was just like, oh, that's me, I'm depressed, I'll be clearly because I haven't seen it.
But I had a bunch of people reach out and be like, oh my god, did you love this part in the Barbie movie? What is it again? It's like, oh, I'm going through a breakup and I'm gonna watch the 1995 Pride and Prejudice and weep, or something.
Yeah, we don't even need breakups, we're here for that all the time. Jane Austen, all the time. That's everything from us today. Kaylee, do you want to let everybody know where they can find you? I'll tag all of your the episodes that we've done together below, as usual, anyway.
Absolutely. You can find me on Instagram. I am half agony, half hope after the Wentworth letter, and it's Half underscore agony underscore, half underscore hope. So, yeah, I would love to talk with you more there.
And, as always, guys, you can find me on Instagram at what the Austin. I'll share all updates on the podcast over there and just any other posts I fancy as well, and Also the patreon. If you want to join the JNite tribe, we have a book club. We're in full force now. We're reading Pride and Prejudice, so if you want to join that, that's also linked in the bio and Kaylee's part of the book club, so you can see Kaylee over there as well. But yeah, that's everything from us today and we'll see you in another episode.