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Episode 61: Life lessons from Jane Austen's leading men with Sophie Andrews @laughingwithlizzie

We are diving deep into the captivating world of Jane Austen's male characters! Joining me is Sophie Andrews, also known as Laughing With Lizzie. Together, we embark on a journey of introspection, exploring the virtues and complexities of Austen's gentlemen. From Mr. Knightley's steadfast evolution to Mr. Darcy's lessons in social finesse, we compare Captain Wentworth's resilience to Colonel Brandon's patience and put Henry Crawford on trial. Our conversation sheds light on love, duty, and character development, resonating across Austen's novels.

Join the conversation on Instagram and share your thoughts, we'd love to hear from you!

Where can you find Sophie?


Izzy: 0:19

hi, jay knights, and welcome back to the what the aust podcast. I am joined again by Sophie Andrews, also known as Laughing With Lizzie. We're doing basically like a sister episode to the one we did last year that was on about the lessons we've learned from Jane Austen heroines. So this time we're going to be covering the men in Austen's novels, the lessons we've learned from them being obviously their pros, but also, you know, from their like, failings or their weaknesses, because there's lots to be taken from people's weaknesses and their failings in life. I feel that about myself as well.

Sophie: 0:51

I don't know about you, sophie. Oh, yes, definitely, and the heroes definitely have plenty of failings and weaknesses to look at nobody's perfect.

Izzy: 1:01

We love them.

Sophie: 1:01

Floors, and all no, we can't.

Izzy: 1:04

I mean yeah, no, nobody's perfect, even mr knightley not quite perfect either our knight in shining armor is still not perfect, so that's a good place to start right. We can definitely start with mr knightley okay, bless him, he is lovely.

Sophie: 1:22

He is lovely. I think he's quite the. I think of all of the the heroes, he is maybe the one that he gets sort of portrayed as the most like perfect and the one that sort of doesn't like change and have a have as much as like a character, like development and things. I think it always ends up being mostly focused around Emma, but I think it's not. I think he definitely does, you know, go through some changes throughout the novel and I think, just in the way that he comes to recognise his own feelings and how he deals with that and sort of, I suppose, that switch with Emma and sort of, yeah, just watching him try and adjust to that, yeah, Definitely not easy, you know, navigating, changing from being friends into something more, when choosing to do that in the first place and when you've known someone for so long and, and, as you said, you know, like you know, we kind of can see from him that, hey, sometimes men struggle to show their love.

Sophie: 2:41

Um, if I loved you less? I well forgotten that quote. Apparently, if I loved you less, I might be able to talk about it more, thank you.

Sophie: 2:50

Thank you. I'm still on antibiotics getting over illnesses. That's my excuse. That quote, yeah, uh, it shows that it, you know, is a struggle for him.

Sophie: 3:01

I think for me the biggest takeaway from Nightly would have to be that kind of like, don't be afraid to call out your friends when they do something wrong, like. I think there's always that whole sort of narrative throughout Emma that Nightly's always, you know, scolding her and telling her off. But I think for most of it it's kind of like playful, nothing really serious. Just, you know, she's always like oh, in the way an older brother would you know, would scold me. But the whole Miss Bates debacle, like that's a whole different level and it takes a whole different feeling to it, different level, and it takes it's a whole different feeling to it and you can see and feel the pain in nightly that he does have to berate her so strongly on that and I think it's you know, especially by that point in the novel, that he knows how deeply he loves her. So it must be even harder to be like Emma.

Sophie: 4:04

What was that? What are you doing? Badly done, and I think. But like, good on him for still doing it, and I think that's, you know, an important lesson, because it can be really hard if you watch a really close friend or even a loved one do something that you know is wrong. It's so hard to be like, yeah, that, that, that, that won't not showing up as your best self friend.

Izzy: 4:31

Yeah, it's hard, it's really hard. Yeah, honestly, that makes me think so much. You know, in Harry Potter, where Neville gets like rewarded for the fact that he was able to stand up to his friends. Yeah, and he's like, you know this. It's challenging to stand up to just someone in general, but to stand up to his friends. Yeah, and he's like, you know this. It's challenging to stand up to just someone in general, but to stand up to your friends sometimes when you see them doing something.

Izzy: 4:51

Yeah, it's so much harder. And again, like I think in so many ways nightly risks the friendship in multiple occasions because he loves emma, like he risks it in scolding her and like saying to her you know, I don't like the way that you're showing up and I'm willing to tell you, even if that means that like we can't chat anymore. But also he's like I'll tell you my feelings, even if it's not going to go anywhere, even if that risks the friendship as well. I love that he is.

Sophie: 5:21

He will speak his mind because he loves her enough that actually her showing up as her best self and him showing up as his best self, yeah, like kind of trumps it all yeah, I think you know it kind of gives you that, you know, encouragement of you know, find yourself a partner who challenges you to be the best you as well as loves you for who you are.

Izzy: 5:43

But I think you need to have the um, the yeah, you need both, both of those things yeah, I love something earlier that you said as well about how um knightley's always kind of true to himself. He doesn't change as much as some of the other heroes, and I think that is so true. Something that I actually really like about him is he is quite an open book.

Izzy: 6:05

I think he closes off more when he starts to realize his feelings for Emma yeah he, he is who he is and he's proud of that, like even in his proposal to Emma. He says you know, you know what I am, and that's so true. Everybody in the community does right and that's why people can rely on him, because he's dependable. I just think that's such a good quality.

Sophie: 6:25

He's the complete opposite of Frank Churchill, who comes to Highbury pretending to be someone he isn't and having lots of secrets and, yeah, being completely duplicitous. So I think it's a real stark contrast to Knightley, who is, as you say, not it's just real stability. Stability, I think, to everyone around him and everyone admires him and looks up to him and, yeah, he's true to himself and I think Emma appreciates that as well, because I don't think Emma would like a man who was up to her yeah, and was you know complimenting her all the time and all of this?

Sophie: 7:07

like, like mr elton, like you know, she, as soon as it's like oh wait, you're after me. Oh no, absolutely not. Um, so I think emma appreciates that as well and and needs it at times.

Izzy: 7:20

Yeah, I think I'd appreciate that too. I think I can't think of anything worse than someone always kissing up to me and never challenging me, never pointing out where I've gone wrong. Um no, I'd rather someone say it come from a place of love, not to just be like you're terrible person.

Izzy: 7:37

But if I did something that wasn't my best self I, I'd like to think someone who loved me would point that out to me and be like look like I wasn't gonna best self I. I'd like to think someone who loved me would point that out to me and be like look like I wasn't gonna say this publicly, but now we're in private, like just want to say you don't think you showed up as your best self there, yeah, and I could be like oh, that hurt, but also, thank you, it's gonna hurt, but you're gonna, you know, gonna be like, okay, that was, that was a bit, a little bit dickish.

Sophie: 7:58

No, that wasn't, that wasn't great, um, but which is what nightly does. Again, he doesn't do it in public, he just does it when emma's on her own. So it it does come from, from love and just him knowing that that that's not really emma which it wasn't really, because it was under the kind of influence of frank churchill. Um, I'm not saying emma's blameless, she's not.

Izzy: 8:21

However, um, yeah, frank churchill was an absolute nightmare on that picnic I know, and we all get carried away sometimes, right, especially if we're around people that just aren't great influences on us in general, um, so I do kind of like, I do kind of get you know why it happens, um, and I get why it hurts nightly as well, because he doesn't want to see her behaving in that way. Yeah, um, something else that I want to touch on that I why it hurts nightly as well because he doesn't want to see her behaving in that way. Yeah, um, something else that I want to touch on that I love about mr nightly.

Izzy: 8:49

A word that comes up a lot when I talk about him in episodes is, um stewardship. The fact that he's such a steward of the natural world and like his area and also the community, like he takes such care when it comes to hybrid and like considering everything and even like just like where roads will go, and he's like kind of like on a parish council where he talks about like ways that they can improve things. Yeah, I love that he's. He's a leader, but he's not so, um, he's not a dictator in it. You know he's a leader, but he's he's very happy still being in the background. He can lead without being in the spotlight and I think that's a great quality.

Sophie: 9:28

I mean he clearly takes a huge interest in all of his tenant farmers and everything of like Robert Martin and everything, and that's always important. As you know, a master and someone who has, like, a lot of power in the area, um, which he does, but it's it's never, never abused. I think, in the same way that we see that in in darcy as well, which we find out later. But I think that that is, um, you know how your servants and people lower than you feel about that person is. I think a very it's going to be a very accurate reflection of how that person is, which I think is why it's always interesting when we see kind of situations like that, where you see him being, you know, good, nice to Robert Martin and helping out with X, y and Z andz yeah, definitely I love that he's.

Izzy: 10:27

Yeah, he's not kind of snobbish in his view of social classes, like he actually values people based on what they you know just who they are like, even even miss bates, who obviously, for all intents and purposes, is a bit of a like a slight joke in the community I suppose. But you know, he still shows up for her, he still supports her, he still helps her and he knows he knows what's due to her.

Sophie: 10:50

he knows that even though and which is what he reminds emma of, um, and it's, I think he he could act like a Lady Catherine about people like that, but he doesn't. And even he acknowledges at one point about Miss Smith, even he basically says how Miss Smith is better than Mrs Elton and that Emma chose better for Mr Elton than he chose for himself.

Izzy: 11:22

So he acknowledges that, although she is someone of you know no consequence and no idea what her you know heritage and sort of birth situation is at the time, acknowledges that she's a nice, nice person yeah, and the same with, like, robert Martin and William Larkin, like you were saying, like he says to emma at the end you know, if I could change their situation in life, I would, because he just looks beyond kind of what society has given people, yeah, and he considers more who that person actually is, um, and, like you know, if they're true of heart, like he's, yeah he'll always show up in a good way to them, and yeah um, he just uses his influence for such good yeah I just think that's like an amazing quality and I think that's why we all love him right, Because he's just a decent human.

Sophie: 12:09

Yeah, definitely. And I think we can't not comment on his patience as well, not only with people like Miss Bates and everyone, but like Mr Woodhouse, like he's there all the time. And man, you must have patience to be around Mr Woodhouse all the time and he's just, he's so gracious and he just doesn't think twice about it. And I mean even going so far and awfully at the end of saying he'll remove from Donwell to Emma's house. I mean, like that would be huge now, like, if you know, I don't think I could name many men that would be happy to move in with their in-laws, you know, even temporarily, but back, you know, 200 years ago. Like that's huge. And he has no qualms. He's like, yeah, we'll do that, that will you know. If that means I can be with you and we can get married and everything, then we'll just do that.

Sophie: 13:07

I mean you can argue that he's there all the time anyway, so it's not much too much of a shame, but he gives up his independence right, and that's massive yeah, and you know he's in, yeah, he's in that big, you know, done well on his own, but still to like literally remove from it and you know close it up and whatever. Um, yeah, it's such a hum, I think, like a I don't know humble, is that the word? Um it humbles me as a reader I'm like, wow, yeah, I, I always's setting high standards for men.

Sophie: 13:43

He is I always love that bit and like I do love it in the 2009 miniseries when they do that scene and she sort of runs in crying like I love you can I? Be together and he comes out and just the way that he's like I've been thinking about it and I'll just move with him, and she's like you'd do that for me, and it's just so fun.

Izzy: 14:03

I know, I love that scene. Oh, you know, I love that one.

Sophie: 14:06

That's my favorite adaptation good one and I just think, yeah, I'll praise about that. Yeah, and he, yeah, says. You know, I would do a lot more without a second thought, which I know is in that rather than the book. However, I think that does sum up that, yeah, he's, he's not, it's not a big deal for him, which is just so nice yeah, he's so people fast and I love that.

Izzy: 14:28

I think something I I was trying to put down a floor as well, just to balance him out. You know, I had to find a floor. Um, the one that I picked up on is the way that he kind of closes down when he's jealous. Um.

Sophie: 14:43

Frank Churchill.

Izzy: 14:44

Totally unnecessary. But the whole Frank Churchill situation. The scene that stands out to me is do you know, when he's dropped off like meats and apples for the bases and they're in the Piano Forte, he's there and Emma, frank Churchill, everyone's around and Mr Knightley's outside and they're like come in, mr Knightley, and he finds out that Frank and Emma are both there together and he's like no, no, I need to go. And it's a really funny scene. Yeah, but it just really points out how much he he really just like closes off quite a lot. When he starts to feel jealous and upset about the whole Frank situation, I mean I can't blame it.

Sophie: 15:17

I'm also like yes, there is distinct jealousy there, but I mean you can argue as well though that obviously it's sort of he has an inkling that there's something else going on that we, you know, we're not being told about, and kind of tries to hint at this to Emma. Like you know what. I feel like there's more of an acquaintance between Jane Fairfax and and frank than they're letting on and she's sort of like no, no, I don't know what you're talking about, you don't know anything about these things. So I imagine, sort of seeing seeing emma just so sort of blindly going along with it and sort of being led by him when you've got a suspicion, even if he also probably knows, hey, there's probably a bit of jealousy going on, um must be difficult. And and then seeing her act in a way that she knows that he knows isn't like um appropriate and just isn't really truly emma and it's because of frank churchill being around must be difficult, um. So yeah, I'm not defending the floor, but you know um, it's jealous, we understand, it's okay.

Izzy: 16:27

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think saying that anybody can avoid jealousy is just unrealistic. I think it is just human nature to to feel jealousy. Um, my only thing with it is I'm like he would sell it so he would save himself so much time and energy if he just asked Emma if she was interested in Frank.

Sophie: 16:47

Yeah, she would just be like no, I know, but I mean that will be the same with so many heroes. If they had just said something, they would have saved themselves a lot of heartache and guessing what's going on inside um heroines minds.

Izzy: 17:08

So yeah, and I mean that definitely applies to us as well.

Sophie: 17:11

How many times you're like oh, if I'd said something like three weeks ago, I would have been better now, even between like friends. You know, I know, I think we're yeah that's just a very yeah, human nature. I love reading and like and then, just you know, work out scenarios in our head. That's what it means.

Izzy: 17:35

Yeah, I have the whole. Yeah, exactly, I love reading and listening to stuff by Eckhart Tolle and he often says that if you leave like this time gap between those things, then that's what happens. You get so stuck in your mind about it but he's like the best thing you can do is just address it as soon as it comes up for you and that'll just like save like so much that you create so much more peace in your life.

Izzy: 17:56

But yeah, no one ever does this. No, so much miscommunication happens and, like you, just create a whole scenario in your head. I know, I know, is that everything you wanted to say on mr nightly then?

Sophie: 18:10

yeah, that probably covers him pretty well we started with a good one, it's only downhill from here. No, I'm just what are you saying about my darcy? I dare you. I mean, he has loads of flaws, I grant, granted, but yes, he's loads of flaws, but he's accountable to them.

Izzy: 18:26

We love that. We love that in a month exactly. He admits the flaws I'm not letting you go to him yet though the next one of the next one on my list is henry tilney so I don't know if you want to do. You want to start off with your thoughts on him love, we love henry tilney.

Sophie: 18:44

Ah, he's so brilliant, he's so different from the other heroes, I think, you know, in a way he's kind of feminine like, but in a good way, like the fact that he'll talk about muslin and he's got a really beautiful relationship with his sister, um, and when we see his relationship with Catherine, which starts out, you know, really quite teasing of her at the start and I think he's finding her really quite sweetly naive and finding it all quite amusing, but then, you know, gets caught up in his own feelings. But I think you know you need to get you a man who can smirk but also be rational.

Izzy: 19:23

Yes, oh my God get you a man who can smirk but also be rational. Yes, oh my god, yes, he's so like. He just has fun, doesn't he? That's why I kind of thought I thought he let. He, lets loose and has fun. He doesn't take things too seriously, um, and I kind of love that about him. Like I always say, northanger abbey is such an easy romance compared to some of the others, because there is just no guessing games or confusion when it comes to Henry Tilney. And what an absolute.

Izzy: 19:51

Like you know, that's just gold dust, I mean yeah who wouldn't want, you know, an easy situation where it's like there's no guessing, there's no games. You like me, I like you. Easy life yeah, I love that. Like we need that in life we need that in life.

Sophie: 20:05

You need that in life. That would make everything so much easier. I think, yeah, he, he is brilliant and I think, well, I suppose I, I, when I asked about this on my stories about what other people had learned, someone said nerdy guys are the best, and I haven't really thought of Henry Tilney as like a nerdy guy, but in a way, yeah, I get, I get, I get where that's coming from, because he talks about, like, reading all these novels and, um, which obviously, you know, men shouldn't be reading novels, oh, no, um, and I think, yeah, in a way, I can see that kind of description of him and, yeah, he is great and I think, having the banter that he has essentially with Catherine, I think that is lovely to see and you don't see that in quite the same way with any of the other couples. And I think that is his sense of humor, um, and his sort of love, love for life, and just his attitude towards everything.

Sophie: 21:13

And it's not that he can't be serious, obviously he can, and he's got plenty of demons, ie his father and his brother male figures in his life, yeah but you know, he's, he's going through life in the best way that he can, making the best of everything, um, and I suppose in a similar way to nightly, I'd say he's quite an open book as well, sort of in what you're saying, that their relationship is quite simple, I think, yeah, it is, because he's not.

Izzy: 21:44

He doesn't really hide what he's feeling, um, and so in that, in that sense he's, he's quite an open book as well something that I throw at you then, just because, um of some of the points you said, do you think this is because he's not the first born like? If you think about people like Darcy and Knightley, they carry such a burden because they've they literally got estates to manage, you know.

Sophie: 22:05

They've got employees, they've got people in their community who look like so many people that rely on them as well as like a name and a reputation of the family that they need to keep.

Sophie: 22:18

Definitely, I think there's a lot that falls on the firstborn and I think Henry is probably pretty, pretty glad that he's not and that, therefore, he, he just is more free. I think you see that in. I mean, I mean, we see that a little bit of Edward Ferris, like, look at his brother, robert Ferris, he doesn't, he doesn't care, does he? And and and, and. You know, you can even go forward to like modern ones like bridgerton, like like I loved anthony bridgerton's um story, because that really sort of plays heavy on that whole idea of the, the pressure and the expectations of the firstborn compared to the other brothers. That can just, you know, faff around if they want to. Really, yeah, I think in a way, yeah, that definitely can come into it, and just that he doesn't have as much to deal with. I mean you, I mean you not that his brother exactly is the, the perfect um elder brother in regards to his responsibilities and everything. However, but maybe it was all too much for him and that's why, um, he went that way it's a true story.

Sophie: 23:35

It is a true story as well um edmund, because tom's obviously the elder and he's not dealing with it well either.

Izzy: 23:43

I even when edmund though edmund's like such a crisis, it's like I mean, yeah, I know you've got responsibilities, friend, but you chill out a little bit, like I mean yeah, constant crisis, like you see.

Sophie: 23:55

I think you see tom trying to deal with being the eldest and seeing that, especially when he goes off to antigua and everything and like the realities of essentially where his father's money is coming from and sort of where his money is coming from as well, and you just, yeah, you can kind of see the battle with Tom.

Izzy: 24:16

Yeah, it's interesting, if their fathers are still alive, how much more chaotic the life If the fathers are still alive. How much more chaotic the firstborns are, because they just seem to be like just crazy, whereas when the fathers are still alive, how much more chaotic the first ones are, because they just seem to be like just crazy. Yeah, whereas when the fathers are dead then it's like I've got to step up, I've got to take responsibility.

Sophie: 24:32

They've gone through that crazy period and they've had to like, right, I'm in charge now. So, yeah, no, it's it. Yeah, it's so true, and I think it's probably um was just, you know, accurate of the of the time, but also possibly, you know, jane Austen putting a bit of like um commentary in on there on sort of, yeah, firstborn versus secondborn yeah, I think so.

Izzy: 24:55

Something that I love about Henry as well, though, is that he, above anyone else, chooses love over money, which is usually the the protagonist choice, right, she usually picks that. She's like I want to marry for love, doesn't matter how much money you've got, I'm gonna marry for love, um, but something I love about henry is he's willing to go disinherited so that he can marry um catherine, and I mean, that's I kind of love that.

Sophie: 25:22

Huge isn't it.

Sophie: 25:23

Yeah, I mean to go against, I mean even again to go against your family now can be hard, but again to go against your family 200 years ago, against your very evil, horrible father and, you know, facing disinheritance, it is an admirable quality. And it is an admirable quality, um, and I think you can't not be flattered if you're in catherine's shoes, even if you're a bit like, oh, no money. But um, I think you have to be a bit flattered that he is putting, he's got his priorities right, he's putting you first yeah, definitely.

Izzy: 26:03

Um, I also like as well. When he comes back he's, he's very quick to accept where he was wrong, but also, like he doesn't go to katherine, like, oh, you like reiterates all the ways in which you know she, she was mistaken and everything he's like you were wrong, but there was, there was truth in what you assumed like he was like there was actually some truth here, like I kind of overreacted because in reality, yes, like you know, my father was horrible to my mom.

Sophie: 26:32

He didn't murder her, but yeah but he wasn't so nice to her and um, he also kind of acknowledges that he didn't. He probably was a little bit encouraging the idea in a way to of the whole like gothic, oh yeah, it's all spooky and all this. And so he realized he was probably a little bit encouraging the idea in a way, to have the whole like gothic, oh yeah, it's all spooky and all this. And so he realized he was probably a little bit to blame for her getting quite so carried away as well.

Izzy: 26:53

Um, yeah, I mean he knows her personality right, he knows that she's quite gullible and can like get drawn into this stuff.

Sophie: 27:00

Yeah, I mean I suppose you sort of say like it's admirable that he, you know, goes against his father um risks disinheritance. I mean I suppose you can say the same about edward ferrers, because he sticks by lucy, although for him you kind of say he probably shouldn't have, because he kind of he, his, his loyalty was perhaps misplaced in that, you know he knew that it was a relationship that was too quick and you know he shouldn't have committed they were all young and everything, and obviously it backfires anyway because she's like oh okay, I'm going to move to your brother then, because he's got the money.

Sophie: 27:41

Crazy plot twist I know, and then don't disinherit the brother talk about unfairness. Never understood that. I'm like alright favouritism, much I know. I think it's an interesting, I suppose, juxtaposition of you know they are both loyal which you have to admire. It's just, I well. I suppose it's katherine versus lucy, isn't it so?

Izzy: 28:11

yeah, also the weird thing about edward as well, because I did a lot of reading up on proposals for an episode that I did and women could get out of engagements pretty easily if they wanted to, but for men it was like hella difficult like you just couldn't like once you propose to someone, you couldn't then go back and be like it's changed my mind, like it was like hella, impossible. Like, as opposed to a woman who could just be like I don't want to marry you anymore yeah, um, even though that can look bad.

Izzy: 28:38

But yeah, exactly, jane Austen herself did it. It's.

Sophie: 28:40

It was definitely easier for women to yeah, I think, engagements if that whole idea of you know being being bound in in your and sort of reputation, sort of you would destroy a woman's reputation, and but that must be so hard though, so as if you engage to lucy my god, yeah, I think there's got to be a way out also edwards.

Izzy: 29:09

I always say this, but he's not much of a man of action, is he? I mean, we'll get on to him, yeah you know he's.

Sophie: 29:15

If there was a loophole, he's not the one searching for it, that's for sure not really no, but yeah, no, tilney, tilney's great, um, and I think, uh, as well as, yeah, a man who knows how to have fun, um, if he understands muslin and clothing more the better, because I just think that's great I think I I do love I think it also, although you know he has got those family issues, he has a fantastic relationship with his sister and I think it's something that his sister really needs because she's clearly missing having her mother around and I think he's really sort of stepped up there and I think it's to me like a family man is always going to be very like appealing, like a man that gets on with their family um I mean most of um and like makes an effort with your family and all of that. I think so, I think it. You can't help but sort of smile at the when you see the, the tilneys together yeah, especially considering his eldest brother's.

Izzy: 30:27

Like, like we said, you know he's a bit of a reiki, but all over the place, I just love the, the connection between henry and elena, that's her name isn't it?

Izzy: 30:36

yeah, um, I just love their connection. I think that's really nice and to see like another brother sister relationship, that's really healthy, a bit like darcy and georgiana georgiana one. But, um, the fact that Henry and Eleanor are of similar ages as well, it's quite nice just to see them like together and they've got a friendship there and they kind of look out for each other.

Sophie: 30:56

I just think that is really sweet.

Izzy: 30:57

So I think that is such a great, a great quality to have.

Sophie: 31:00

And, eleanor, loves Catherine and is like I like her for my brother. I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to help out here and it's yeah, no, it's lovely. The scenes are when it's just the three of them at Northanger, when the father's buggered off which is nice are just really sweet and you can tell they're all relaxed and happy. Because I think you always see which, even though henry is the second son and doesn't have that responsibility, I think there is a sense that henry feels like a disappointment to his father, which just which? Which, in a way, you know, because it's General Tilney and Captain Tilney and then there's just him, you know.

Izzy: 31:48

Hello Tumad.

Sophie: 31:49

Yeah, and I think, while you kind of think, well, could he be proud of his eldest son, really with the reputation and he is a rake. But I think he probably is more proud of that than he is of Henry he sort of doesn't see him as like a I don't know, like a man-man, you know.

Izzy: 32:10

He's like established himself, yeah, in a way that he sees fit. Yeah, I think that's true and I think that's really tough. I think that's extremely tough for a man to grow up with like. Feeling like you're not I don't know like your path in life is not validated or appreciated by your father must be incredibly difficult. I mean, I don't want to go all too star warsy on people, but you know similar dynamic.

Sophie: 32:32

I mean yeah, but, yeah, but I and I always kind of got that sense from from henry and again, he definitely also misses the presence of his, of his mother as well of his mum.

Izzy: 32:45

Yeah, of course, absolutely, I'd say. My only qualm with henry is I think sometimes he can be a little too indifferent to some situations like, um, I think he could be more clear to katherine the dangers of her friendship with isabella, the fact that isabella is likely to go with his brother because he's just like joking about it and he's like yeah uh, I think yeah he doesn't, but he's not clear about it and I think he sometimes he underestimates Catherine, but sometimes he overestimates her life experience yeah, he doesn't yet have and he assumes that she'll be able to see what's going on there.

Izzy: 33:22

But Catherine really doesn't think so. She's like, oh, oh, no, isabella might be in danger. Why is he talking to her when she's engaged to my brother and stuff? And Henry kind of brushes it off like, oh, I can't really do anything about it.

Sophie: 33:35

But really he should have been like, yeah, this is what's going on, friends, this is not your friend's, not so great yeah, I think he, yeah, he assumed she will understand more than she does, and I suppose at the beginning as well, sort of when, you know, the friendship was forming with isabella and also, like john thorpe, which obviously you know he's a fop of a man, um, I think I suppose at that point henry still probably doesn't know exactly how he's feeling about catherine and it's like, oh, this is a really like naive girl that you know if this is a bit of fun to to chat back and forth with her. Um, but, yes, he's probably is, as you say, a little bit, a little bit indifferent and not, I think if he, if he looked back at it, he probably would have gone. Yeah, I probably could have guided her a little bit more there. Um, yeah it, it would have saved a little bit of heartache, I think, on a few things.

Izzy: 34:37

I think it kind of links on to what you were saying, though, about like being the second son and kind of falling more into the background, like he doesn't seem like the type that would go up to his older brother, and be like I don't like what you're doing, like he's just he's not that person, he's that. I feel like someone like edmund bertram would like he just goes to tom and be like I don't like what you're doing.

Izzy: 34:54

You'll be, immoral, whereas henry doesn't seem like that type. I feel like he just let bygones bygones me and just like be like, I'll just do my own thing like my brother's, an idiot.

Sophie: 35:04

You know kind of attitude. What can I do about it? Yeah, which is it is? Yeah, it is a shame and I I always forget that he is a clergyman, like I forget so many times he's got a full-blown career. He's doing him like exactly like in the way that you. I never forget that that's edmund. What's Edmund wants to do?

Izzy: 35:23

I mean, it isn't more major because he doesn't shut up about it but Henry, I'm like oh yeah, he is as well. I know I forget. Also. I'm always like is he in training or whatever? He doesn't really chat about it, but then in the book he like disappears, like every so often. He's like I've got work now, but I need to actually do some sermons. I'll see you in a bit appears like every so often. He's like I've got work now, but I need to actually go to work, do some sermons.

Izzy: 35:45

I'll see you in a bit which I actually think is so funny. It's so true. He's a bit understated, isn't he? I know so many people who really love him. I, I don't have that same like infatuation for him. I don't know why. I don't know if it's just like. He's just not very assertive and that just like is not the one for me.

Sophie: 36:06

Like I'm just a bit like I feel like I'd want to date him but not marry him. I think that's where I am with him to tell me. I feel like he'd be fun to date for a bit, but then I'd be like nah, I think I want more of a man.

Izzy: 36:18

Yeah, yeah, without being too harsh. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, it's, it's. Yeah, I think I'd be friends with him. I don't even think I'd date him. To be honest with you, I think he'd make a good friend, though I need to make a good brother. In fact, he actually kind of reminds me of my younger brother a little bit maybe that's why you don't want to date him.

Sophie: 36:37

Maybe exactly, oh dear he is. He is fun and I do like how much of a contrast he is to all. Like all the other heroes, I think it's nice to have I mean that whole novel is and I think he does work well with Catherine as the heroine just her naivety and stuff. So I think they work well together. But you definitely couldn't see him with a character like Lizzie Bennet or Emma.

Izzy: 37:04

Oh my gosh, can you imagine with Emma? Emma would just eat him up and spit him out yeah, so I think he's well matched with Catherine. I think so. The next one on my list, though, is sure Edmund. My, yeah, sure, we love Edmund yeah.

Sophie: 37:31

Well, okay, no, to be fair to him, like, yeah, I've never been a huge Edmund fan, I think I just I'm like, why have you got so obsessed by Mary Crawford? Like, take those blinkers off, like stop it. Like, if so, again someone put in the comments, don't be blinded by shiny things. I'm like, yeah, that's pretty much accurate for Mary Crawford. Um, but to be fair to him, like you know, when Fanny first comes, like he does show her kindness when no one else is, and I think like that's admirable, like shows you, you know, you should be kind even when no one else is, and and hold to your principles and your morals. Um, because even with mary crawford around, he's still pretty much, you know, even if it takes the whole, um, uh, elopement to make him really realize that mary is like yeah, she's well, it's not a big deal. He does on the whole, you know, hold true to what he believes in, which is an admirable quality.

Izzy: 38:36

Yeah, I love that he stands up for people that he loves. He is very loyal in that sense, and I think that is a really important quality, especially considering how awful everyone else is to Fanny. He just has her back and I think that is incredible and that's probably, for me, his best quality.

Izzy: 38:54

Um, I think it's good that he learns to recognize the importance of sharing values with his partner, because obviously he goes on a bit of a journey with that. I actually love mary crawford, so I'm literally just like friends. I'm glad that she didn't end up with you because you could do she could do so much better, uh, but I my thing about him honestly drives me up the wall. The guy is fickle and he's just like such a hypocrite, like he is all over the place, like he does say, oh, these are my morals, these are my opinions, but then literally crumbles on that all the time. If it's like I get to have a hot, steamy scene with mary, he's like, yeah, okay yeah out the window and I'm just like friends, I don't, I don't like it.

Izzy: 39:34

But then he's all like high and mighty about other stuff and I'm like I don't understand, I don't understand you.

Sophie: 39:39

Yeah, he's, he. He's like, he really is, like challenged essentially by Mary Crawford coming along, and I think that's so hard for Fanny to watch and I suppose, again, in the way of you, also wonder how, as well as being so like blinded by Mary Crawford, you think, how is he so blind to fanny as well? Like that takes ages. Um, yeah, you know, even jane austen says, you know, in the period of time that you feel is appropriate, that they, you know, at the end, that they, you know, come, come together. Um, he is, yeah, he, he, definitely. I suppose, I don't know, I suppose it feels a little bit like a teenage boy that gets obsessed by something and that's literally all he can see. Tunnel vision, yeah.

Izzy: 40:36

Yeah, I think as well something. There's a couple of other things with Edmund that I think. One he does have to take on responsibility that isn't his in terms of like with his brother, just being like this crazy alcoholic who gambles all the time. He has to do so much more work, which is actually meant for the first son. He has to do it constantly, which is stress is it stress, you know? And a strain on your life. He gives up his like because he was meant to be the clergyman of their parish, wasn't he?

Izzy: 41:04

And he gives that living up to pay off Tom's debts, like I mean that's quite, quite good, isn't it? Like he's like I'll give up my career to save my brother and my family, which I think he is so loyal to his family, which you know, like we said about Henry, that's a great quality to just be like.

Sophie: 41:20

I mean, some of his family members are terrible, so don't really get it, or his family really hard family to be loyal to. With tom acting the way he is, I mean, the father isn't great, he has to go on a arc as well. The mum, it just does nothing. The two sisters are a nightmare. Um and um, mrs norris, oh, she's hideous. So the fact that he is still being like, well, I don't have, well, I don't have a choice, but I still am going to. You know, protect my family and be loyal. Um, it's like you know, I'd want to be out of there.

Izzy: 41:56

Really, family, I know I'll be like bye, I'm done. Like, yeah, I think, do you think edmund's such a nature versus nurture situation? Because, like I love that, I think the fact that he grows up with fanny, like he chooses to spend more time with it, actually saves him. Because I feel like what we see yeah, witness with him, with mary crawford is him giving into his natural instincts and like the rest of how with the rest of his family are like his genetics.

Izzy: 42:21

Yeah, you know, I mean that they're all just like these terrible people. But I feel like he saves himself in the fact that he's close with fanny, because fanny is naturally just such a good person at heart and that rubs off on him in the end. I think that's his saving grace. But otherwise he, I think if he doesn't have fanny, he would just be exactly the same as the rest of his family. He, he battles that throughout the novel. I think.

Sophie: 42:46

Yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting point actually. I think, yeah, because they do spend so much time together growing up, she's bound to have an influence, um, because you know she is very strong, strong of character, um, and it is I mean, you see that as well a little bit um, like fanny's influence on the father eventually as well, like it takes him a while, but by the end of the novel he's, you know, especially when he's seen his own daughters you know, you know, running off and doing all sorts. He is, you know, saying, oh well, actually Fanny's pretty great, and I think it's, yeah, just has, has an influence on the people, the people around him that that want to, that want to see it and want to listen, which is edmund from very early age and then, I think, eventually, eventually, the father um, and mother, I think I mean, yeah, she's, she's just on the sofa with a pug all the time, um, can I feel?

Sophie: 43:48

it um what an energy yeah, um, and I think yeah it. It would be interesting to see if you took fanny out of the equation, how that you know how that would have gone with edmund and just the rest of like the the situation in that household without fanny.

Izzy: 44:11

I think he would have just gone with mary crawford.

Izzy: 44:14

I think he would have been even worse I already find him in the book, like I just think he would just be just a terrible person, um, in really high and mighty and just like awful. Like I just and, like I said, I really like mary crawford. I actually don't find so many faults in mary. I think she actually has some great qualities as well. As you know, she's a little bit problematic at times but, um, oh, she definitely has some good qualities and she does she's?

Izzy: 44:38

honest about that, though, which I like. I feel like edmund's so high and mighty that he actually doesn't even recognize his own. Like hypocrisy, which is quite different to austin's other heroes. Like often the men in austin's novels, they are able to be like self-reflective yeah, whereas I feel like sometimes edmunds like cannot like fanny's, there she's literally just like why are you not seeing this? We've had this conversation.

Sophie: 45:02

He's just like what are you doing, mary?

Izzy: 45:04

says some funny things at times and he's like mary's. Like I hate clergymen, they're all lazy. He's like isn't that funny and funny it's like what?

Sophie: 45:13

yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's true, and I think, um, I mean mary as well, she's, I mean she as well, she's nice to fanny at times as well, and I think she does, yeah, offer a friendship that, um, that fanny just doesn't have, like a female friendship that she's not had before.

Izzy: 45:32

Yeah, mary doesn't need to do that. Who's Fanny to Mary? No one, in the end of the day, like Mary, doesn't know that Fanny has feelings for Edmund. Why would she? They're set up as siblings, for Christ's sake, I mean, let's be clear.

Sophie: 45:53

Nobody's picking up on that dynamic. Okaymund isn't, certainly no one else is um. No, where do you stand then on? You know it's like henry crawford because obviously you know he could come along. And it's like, does he go down almost an almost hero route? Or is he like down in the wick and willoughby side of things like, because obviously he goes on an arc at the end of it. Not good what he does um with mariah, but like his relationship with fanny and like I think fanny gets close to being like well, edmund's lost to Mary, so maybe I do um. Yeah, he's an interesting one.

Izzy: 46:32

I would have gone with Henry over Edmund. I really Edmund's not the one for me, let's be clear, and I know Henry has his flaws but again, like many of the other heroes, henry is self-reflective on it. He is, he is accountable to his own failings in the past and he's willing to change. And I, whether he changes or not, regardless, and obviously he doesn't end up changing, but it's just that openness to do that is that, that ability to recognize your own flaws, I think is so important. I just don't see that with edmunds and I think that's problematic and I think it'll create a dodgy power dynamic between him and Fanny as a couple, which I just that is not the one. At least with Mary Crawford there wasn't the power struggle there. They were both very strong characters. You know they were willing, like Mary holds her own in that relationship. So I think in terms of psychological safety within a relationship, I actually think edmund and mary were a better fit. I think fanny is infatuated with edmund and I think edmund has too much power in that dynamic.

Sophie: 47:41

Yeah, I mean in a way you can. I mean, you can understand why fanny is so infatuated, because when she was at her like rock bottom, he showed her kindness and that continued. So, you know, at that kind of age it's kind of like well, of course she was going to become a little bit like, oh my gosh, trauma, bonded. Yeah, well, yeah, basically, um, and so you kind of, yeah, in a way I can't really blame her, but yeah, that's not necessary. You know, it's like well, is that really the best setup for a marriage?

Sophie: 48:17

Um, and you kind of wonder, like with henry, would he have done what he did with, you know, mariah, if fanny had accepted him? Awfully, I don't think mary awfully says well, if fanny just accepted him he wouldn't have done this. Um, and yeah, you do wonder, because he is like he did seem to become like more seriously attached to fanny and like actually more genuine about his, his sort of feelings and everything for her. I can, you can understand fanny's, even taking out the kind of edmund obsession. You can understand fanny's hesitance because he's obviously seen the behavior with, like you know, pitting julia and mariah against each other.

Izzy: 49:02

But yeah, yeah, it's true, but he's not shy about those flaws, as he says. You know, he admits that he's a terrible flirt. Mary tells everyone he's a terrible flirt. I don't think he would have gone for Mariah if Fanny had accepted him. I don't think he would have gone for her at the time that he did. I can't say for sure. He would have been a changed person forever if.

Izzy: 49:28

I think other things would have come up, but at that point I know this sounds terrible and I 100% advocate for marrying for love, not money for sure. But given Fanny's upbringing, I just think even if he had gone off the rails slightly in the future, fanny would have had a comfortable life, she would have had position. You know, and I'm just like, like, based off everything that happened at Mansfield Park, I still think that would have been better than a life with Edmund. And I know that sounds so bad, but I just, I'm just like I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just because I don't like Edmund. Like, obviously, maybe if I was in love with Edmund I'd feel differently, but there's no love there, okay yeah, no I, he's always been my uh least favorite um I want someone to be like.

Izzy: 50:16

I love edmund. I should get somebody on who loves him. Who is this?

Sophie: 50:20

person I'll do. I'll do a poll on my stories to be like who like loves loves edmund. If he wants to talk, let's find him. I must speak with you yeah, I feel like, why do you need therapy?

Izzy: 50:35

is this the trauma bond? You must tell me are you okay?

Sophie: 50:41

yeah, uh, yeah, yeah I. I think I agree with you, like whether henry would be perfect forever, but whether he would have done it. So, like immediately after being rejected. It did almost feel like a all right. Well, screw you, I'm going to go and do well, rebound.

Izzy: 50:58

Screw Mariah.

Sophie: 50:59

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's, yeah, it's an. It's always an interesting one that that like um for the, the four of them I know I know, I know we better move on to the next person, though.

Izzy: 51:17

So the next one I have on my list, another fab one. Next one is captain wentworth.

Sophie: 51:23

Oh, fab, but also I have, I have, I have problems I'm excited to get into this one, but we have problems he used to get over himself a lot of another situation, communication, people. If he just kind of like been been more open and just kind of got over his like resentment, like they would have got together much sooner, like, if you know, I think he was being a bit petty and childish. I understand, you know, being rejected and based on money and all of this tough, horrible. But he also will have known that Anne will have been advised and influenced and persuaded, so kind of completely holding it against her. And you know, eight years later that's a long time he really does just remember when we were teenagers and you said this horrible thing Literally it is, and you know I get this horrible thing, literally it is, and you know I get.

Sophie: 52:33

You know it is that, though, and then it's like well, I'm gonna flirt with this younger woman, one in front of you, and you know.

Sophie: 52:40

So it's a bit like come on, mate, you could have you, yeah, and obviously you know. When, then, louisa has her accent, he's a bit like oh, I've been an idiot, I shouldn't have been acting like this, and it kind of dawns on him where his resentments got him, um, but yeah, don't don't do that in life. Try not to try not to hold crazy, crazy grudges like that, um, especially like with um, just the circumstances, I'm like anne can't take all the blame. Like she was so young, of course, she was gonna like have to kind of listen to the people around her and, like lady russell, she was trying to be a second mother and really trying to do right by anne, like, and in the circumstances. You know, marriage is pretty transactional and you've got to sort out your future. So you can totally see why Lady Russell was like oh, I don't know if your mum would want you doing this, and her saying and he was just about to disappear in the navy.

Izzy: 53:42

Yeah, so how long?

Sophie: 53:44

and Anne was a nobody in the navy at that time, so I know yes, I have thoughts.

Izzy: 53:51

I have something I love about wentworth obviously, the fact that he is so constant in his feelings. Yeah, I think that's incredible and I think, if you compare it to some of the difficulties maybe that we face in dating nowadays, the fact that we have, like dating apps, this kind of endless choice and there's almost this idea of love being kind of disposable if there's any slight issue, there's somebody else available, um and I think that's overwhelming and like, well, I you know, but I I just think that notion is overwhelming for people and even that idea itself is problematic yeah, I like.

Sophie: 54:29

So, personally, like I find dating apps very intimidating, the whole idea of them like I'm very much, like I don't know if I want to go there, like I think, yeah, so I'm, yeah, I know, I know what you're saying it's.

Izzy: 54:44

It's not my cup of tea, it's not something that I've delved into myself only because I feel like if the universe wants me to meet someone, then I will like I'm not somebody who stays like choked up in my house all the time, like I do go out pretty regular and, like you know, doing stuff with different people and networking and things. So I I believe that we all need a few good eggs in our life. You know, we don't need to. I don't need to be overwhelmed with, like hundreds of people that I otherwise would never have met. I feel like we will come across the right people if we're meant to like you know what I mean we're meant to meet those people. We don't need to filter through hundreds of people to try and find them. That was never. Life was never set up that way, right, I mean, that was never meant to happen um, and yeah, but yeah no.

Sophie: 55:28

It definitely is like incredible really that I mean for anne as well the fact that she has stayed true to him in, you know, going through in a world where women are very pressurized to marry um, even though you know she was the not the eldest daughter, but still, to secure your future, women need to marry and the fact that she's managed to stave that off for eight years to get to 27, which basically wears your cap on. So, yeah, it's admirable on both their parts, and I guess you can kind of look at Wentworth and think, well, hey, maybe there's always hope I think.

Izzy: 56:14

I think there's something really amazing about it. I mean, we say all of this and then he turns up and starts flirting and everyone yeah, he's a bit of an idiot, which is not the one. That's not the one. We don't need that um, something that obviously. That really bothers me, the fact that he chooses to call another woman when he does still have feelings for ann and of all the women he chooses, he chooses someone in an social circle very problematic, that that's not the one we don't do that.

Sophie: 56:43

I'm just gonna wave this in front of you like, yeah, I'm free and easy and yeah, I'll take anyone for the asking yeah, and also just like such a lack of consideration towards louisa.

Izzy: 56:55

And something that really bothers me about wentworth is how judgmental he can be. There's a really awful bit later in the book when he's talking to ann and he's he's basically saying like you know how he's always been in love with ann and what have you, and like how he didn't realize what he was doing with Louisa, all of that jazz. But then he's also really horrible about Louisa. When Benwick chooses her, he's like Benwick could do so much better, like Benwick's so wonderful, and he's like Louisa, who's she and I'm like friend. Were you flirting at all about Louisa about five minutes ago?

Sophie: 57:33

Like this about five minutes ago, like this is rude, rude. I'm like well, you caused her accident as well, really. I mean, so be careful what you say. No, yeah, it is true, though I think, um, and I know he tries that whole like, oh well, maybe I didn't realize quite how like far I had, you know, let it go with with louisa, and maybe he didn't and maybe the accident, you know, did bring him to his senses a bit and got a bit like oh, should I be proposing to this, this woman that I basically nearly killed?

Sophie: 58:03

I've been caught, yeah, um, but I think like I'm like oh, come on you, you knew what you were doing, like she was absolutely besotted with you.

Izzy: 58:14

Yeah, and he's awful about Anne to Louisa as well. Oh, he's so horrible about that. Oh, I don't like fickle characters. And he the.

Sophie: 58:24

Elliot pride and blah, blah, blah.

Izzy: 58:26

The Elliot pride. She's so changed I wouldn't even recognise her. I mean, the guy is a bit of a gossip and he says some pretty bad things that are behind people's back, which I do not like. This quality, this is not nice. And even his friend like he's going on about bennett, like how bennett could have done better, and blah, blah, blah and it's like this is your friend, just be supportive of him like why are you, why are you making these snap judgments?

Izzy: 58:51

like he has this kind of moral superiority which I think we do see in a few of austin's men in it, when west does bother me because he almost judges other people for things, like he says about anne and her choosing not to marry her when she was younger, but then he equally goes on these like moral judgments against people himself as well and it's like well, um, you need to decide. You've got a bit of pride there as well.

Sophie: 59:17

Like you think that louise is no good for bennett and yeah if you're saying, you know, it's like the elliot pride and all this, it's like, well, what about yours?

Sophie: 59:24

Um, I think the you could put the sort of the whole, you know, insulting Anne and the Elliot to Louisa, down to his resentment and annoyance at that whole situation. But then when you then see it later where he's being rude about Louisa and like, oh, this isn't great for Benwick and all that, it's like, oh, okay, maybe you can't fully put it down to you being a bit annoyed at Anne and her family. So, yeah, he definitely has a bit of that and you mean maybe that I reckon that could partly have come from. He has built himself up in society. He's doing, you know, he's done really well in the navy. He's made a name for himself and I suppose, given that you were rejected for basically being a nobody, and he's come back and I'm like, look at me now and I guess that's, you know, that could have a little bit to do with it, even not just against the Elliotts, just generally. Just, you know he has made a, he's done well in life and I guess he's proud of that.

Izzy: 1:00:32

Yeah, you know he has made a, he's done well in life and I guess he's proud of that. Yeah, I kind of love that as well. A self-made man it's very that is very cool and I think that's a great lesson to learn as well that it doesn't. You don't have to be given things in life that are the other paths and you can build your own empire, like you don't have to be given it. Obviously, with some of the heroes we do see that it's just.

Izzy: 1:00:47

They are given it as a birthright yeah whereas wentworth doesn't have that and he does make himself, so he does have a leg to stand on. In so many ways, I think he just, yeah, sometimes he can just be a bit mean. I think he can just be a bit mean sometimes and I I think you're right, I think it's coming back and being like this kind of new, more popular person, like when you left your nobody.

Izzy: 1:01:10

You come back and everybody's like oh, it's Wentworth, everybody's interested in Wentworth. So maybe that does go to his head a little bit and he feels like he can, um, like, speak his mind. I feel, like if I was Anne, it would really bother me if I heard him like talking bad about Louisa and I'd secretly heard him talking bad about me, I'm like, like, what are you gonna do?

Izzy: 1:01:31

you're gonna go and chat to Harville and you're gonna say bad stuff about me again, like I don't understand. Like you said, I had a fickle character, but, friend, you're like the. There's this terrible gossip yeah, yeah, no, no.

Sophie: 1:01:44

I think it's kind of something. I think some of his behavior that you see can it could be considered a little bit childish at times, like, you know, kind of yes, like gossiping in the playground, kind of situation, um to yeah, I said yeah, it is sad to see. But I think I think Anne, whatever he did, I don't think that was going to break it for her. By that point it'd been eight years, that's true. So I think that is true. I think, um, she would probably say, oh well, being rude about me, I get that, I know why you're doing that, um, and I think she would just wash over the other yeah, if you're like, be like.

Izzy: 1:02:31

Oh, I didn't hear that. No, I've seen horrible stuff about Louisa.

Sophie: 1:02:34

Now, okay, Maybe if he continued that, she would start being like no, don't say that, not nice, we don't do that. Maybe she'd go nightly on him. You never know.

Izzy: 1:02:43

Oh, that would probably be my approach. Yeah, maybe I wouldn't ditch Wendler.

Sophie: 1:02:50

I definitely wouldn't ditch him.

Izzy: 1:02:51

I'd just be like friend. Yeah, we check ourselves. We have to go nightly on him. Yeah, do a nightly. We have to go do a nightly on him. Yeah, um, I love that, though. Um, I'm trying to think of, like you know, some other good lessons. I. I really like that Wentworth is so assertive, like once. He is very sure that he does have feelings with for anne. Um, he does speak his mind and, compared to some of the other heroes, yeah, he has very little to go on when he does this. It takes so much bravery for him to be so vulnerable with anne because they've spent very little time alone. He's obviously made some poor decisions. She's being courted by another man in this time, like it's, he has very little to hold hope on and he still, yeah, puts his heart on the line anyway and I suppose also he sees, uh, william elliott as a hang on a minute.

Sophie: 1:03:44

He's going after anne. I need to say something now. So that is also like he doesn't just sit back and go oh well, I've lost her. He's like, no, I'm gonna fight for my woman actually. So we love that. Yeah, that's a great lesson and I mean the way he professes his love. I mean is pretty much I know. Why don't men write romantic letters like that? Now? Declaration of love is fantastic we're here for it, not like, hey, how are you?

Izzy: 1:04:15

like shall we hang out? Yeah, hang out.

Sophie: 1:04:18

No netflix and chill, no, go away no, that doesn't sound.

Izzy: 1:04:22

That doesn't sound so great to me.

Sophie: 1:04:23

No, no no, you pierce my soul. Where's this?

Izzy: 1:04:29

you see?

Sophie: 1:04:31

only not that I am too late precious feelings are gone forever, then I'll be there, ah man needs to.

Izzy: 1:04:40

Where is my my undying love for the past decade letter?

Sophie: 1:04:44

oh exactly like no, just pathetic text.

Izzy: 1:04:50

It's not gonna do it for me, yeah no, no, we're here for the, the deep, passionate love, and I'm so glad that he like comes to that, I think, I think, when worth goes on a real journey. So I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned from him in his positive attributes the fact that he is so consistent in love, but also the mistakes you can make sometimes when you are bottling up feelings and you know your pride gets in the way because you're trying not to be so obvious if you have feelings you don't want to look, you know, like a crazy stalker, because you yeah, um, so I get it.

Izzy: 1:05:22

You know there's a, there's a inner conflict that he goes through like inner turmoil and he and again he does acknowledge.

Sophie: 1:05:28

You know some of his flaws as well, like I think there are moments where he does like okay, yeah, that wasn't so great of me to do that, so um, yeah yeah, yeah, I agree, which I love.

Izzy: 1:05:41

I love that quality. I think if you can be self-reflective, I mean I said this is why part of me doesn't like Edmund, but I, yeah, I appreciate that Wentworth is honest and also that he opens up to Anne and um he like wow, I was like resentful, I'm so sorry. Like I was just in a hole of a wild for a while because I was just like angry about the whole situation. But I'm showing up now and it's like you know what we can.

Sophie: 1:06:03

We can roll with that, we can roll with that If you can admit your mistakes and, like grow from them. That is, I think it is very important, as you know, yes, as a person, which is why I love him, because I love how him and lizzie go on such journeys, like everyone. Often, you know, like will say that, like, like, darcy goes on the journey and not lizzie, and I'm like, no, no, they both to me, go on like an equal journey. He just really shows that it's important to work on yourself and that you can always um improve and we can all change for the better, and that criticism isn't a bad thing no, no, yes, it's that somebody pointing out something that's wrong and you're not getting so up in like your own pride and like being so triggered by it that you can't see the wood for the trees, that you can't be like actually.

Izzy: 1:07:25

Yes, how do I want to show up in the world, and something that I love about Darcy is I know he goes on this whole journey but he doesn't do it expecting anything from.

Izzy: 1:07:34

Elizabeth there was no preference, no expectation of outcome with her. He changes because he wants to be the best version of himself. He wants to be somebody that's worthy of somebody like Elizabeth. Like. He doesn't do it specifically because he is like I'm going to propose again. She's going to go for me, he's like, but I want to show up as somebody who's worthy of being loved by somebody like you, and somebody who's worthy of like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sophie: 1:07:59

And it's the fact that, even though he is still, you know, clearly, you know, loves her and he goes off and you know, is, you know, saves lydia and all this, but he is, he so doesn't want her to find out, because he so doesn't want her to think that he's done it just for the sake of her, like he's so like please don't tell anyone, I don't want and he's quite annoyed that she's found out and I think that that really shows that he's not doing it for for her. Like he thinks there's there's no chance and the only reason he comes back and proposes again is because of her rebuttal to to lady catherine. She went oh, hang on a minute, have I got another option here? I think I've done enough. Yeah, I think so. That is is fantastic that you could make someone who you know you potentially might like you know that relationship or friendship or well, not friendship relationship's kind of ended, but you're still like she had some good points. I'm gonna work on myself, even if I never really see her again. Like that's not. It's like, wow, we love, we love, we love that.

Sophie: 1:09:07

And it's sort of acknowledging. Yeah, it's just acknowledging, acknowledging when someone else is right and not being afraid, yeah, afraid of that, even someone who, like you, can't deny he's, he's proud. But I mean he says himself like he was brought up to be proud, like he was, you know, from eight to eight and twenty. Uh, whatever that quote is, I can't remember it now. There's from eight and twenty, yeah, but basically that he was said you know you're, oh, if you're a darcy or this, you're that you need to be. So a bit like the first line of emma, where she, you know austin tells us yeah, well, of course she's spoiled, that's her upbringing, it's a little bit like darcy. Well, of course he's proud, that was his upbringing and his situation in life and him going, oh, yeah, actually that's not so great. Maybe I could, um, uh, you know, and yes, yeah, I just think I love this, yeah no, I love it.

Izzy: 1:10:07

I love what he says to elizabeth. He says you taught me a lesson hard. I'm sorry, you taught me a lesson hard indeed at first, but most advantageous by you, I was properly humbled yeah in, oh, yeah, yeah and I'm just like, wow, I love that. And I mean, this whole episode is about like lessons that we learn, and we often learn lessons through the stories that we read and through character developments as well, and I think with darcy.

Izzy: 1:10:33

Yes, there is absolutely something to be said about changing just because you want to show up as the best version of yourself, not because you're expecting anything yeah, and I think that's so important. Sometimes you have to just do it for you yeah, regardless of outcome.

Sophie: 1:10:46

Yeah, definitely, and I think that's also. I suppose you can also look at darcy's whole character and story in the um. Sometimes you know, people's perceptions can be wrong, I think. While, yes, darcy was proud, I do think if you look back to sort of when he first came among them in Meryton, it was literally not long after Wickham had tried to elope with Georgiana and he is just used to going through life having women jump at him because, oh my gosh, he's got 10,000 a year. I mean, and you know he's a man's a catch.

Sophie: 1:11:27

Yeah, and he knows it, and he knows that he's got to be careful of fortune hunters. And you know he also, I think, he wants love in a marriage Because I think he saw that in his parents. You know, I think it's sort of implied that his parents had a good relationship. So he kind of has got to guard himself and be a bit careful in society, like if he was a bingley the whole time I'd be a bit of a nightmare, dangerous, yeah. So and equally you can apply that to why he does then advise bingley in the way that he does.

Sophie: 1:12:05

Um, so I think you know Lizzie is too quick to judge with that and I think he gets a little bit of a you know a hard rap about all of that when actually he's doing what he was used to doing and what he felt was necessary to kind of protect his interests. And you know he's been um sort of all re really reinforced with the fact that he's had his you know, his nemesis wick. And come along and try and get his 16 year old sister for her 30 000 pounds and then manipulates the woman that he loves as well.

Sophie: 1:12:45

Like it's bad times yeah, he's like, oh, crying out loud, you again, again, leave me alone. And especially, I mean you are ages ago, I know literally. And like I mean you can't. I think I think for with like Wickham in particular, like he was good to him, like he has been more than good to that man in the past, like when more than good to that man in the past, like when the father died and you know, saying, all right, I don't want the living, I'll just, I'll just fine, just give me the money. Instead, like he's been so good to him and he comes along he's just messing everything up and spreading rumors and doing all this like yeah he's 25 as well.

Izzy: 1:13:25

This is, he's been through a hell of a lot of life.

Sophie: 1:13:28

He's 28, isn't he?

Izzy: 1:13:29

it was. He's 28.

Sophie: 1:13:30

He's still young, though, right, yes, that is still pretty young, like he's been through a hell of a lot in life, the like you know he's the big master of pembley and running all this and clearly, well, because all of his servants and tenants really admire him and he's a guardian of his 16 year old sister like that must be so hard to have no mother or father around and he's got to be both of those. So your 16 year old sister like going, you know, going through at that age the things that you go through, as you know, like a young woman and but the whole wickham debacle, like you know she had a heart broken.

Sophie: 1:14:08

Imagine trying to deal with that as an older brother who's trying to console your sister, but it's also absolutely fuming mad with your you know ex-friend, like it's, I know, I know it's a lot to go through.

Izzy: 1:14:23

Something that I love about darcy, and something that I really take away from him as a character as well, is how loyal he is to the people in his life.

Izzy: 1:14:28

Like colonel fitzwilliam makes such a good, like an emphasis on well is how loyal he is to the people in his life. Like colonel fitzwilliam makes such a good, like an emphasis on that, like how loyal he is as a friend, and we see that, like his, his actions were off with bingley but his intentions were right, like he just wanted to look after his friends. And again we see that his loyalty to his sister, how like he tries to keep that whole thing private and he's there for her and he protects her. Um, how's to Wickham? Even though Wickham deserves none of it. He could have just exposed Wickham and he didn't have to, like, say, georgiana was involved, but he could have just been like told everyone how bad Wickham is and made sure that he had no career and everything he doesn't do that he doesn't expose that's being loyal to his father, because he knew his father did like him.

Sophie: 1:15:12

Yes, he was like. Well, my dad did like him. So I guess like you know.

Izzy: 1:15:16

But he would be true to his words and also follow through with his you know final wishes.

Sophie: 1:15:21

He owes him nothing and he owes him even less when he treats him the way that he does. I know, I know, yeah, he, he does so many admirable things. I think a lot of his behavior is understandable and excusable, um, and then when he, you know, then when he's, the fact that he then changes and acknowledges and make you know, works and grows, um, works on himself and what grows, um, works on himself and addresses those is just even more sexy. But, um, I think it is, yeah, he, I think people forget, like the complexities of kind of darcy situation and everything that's going on and they're like, oh, he's just so proud and haughty and all this and I'm like, well, yes, kind of has a right to be yeah, in time, yeah, like he is.

Izzy: 1:16:14

But also there's a reason and, yeah, I think he's got a lot of walls and a lot of barriers up and you can't really blame him no, no, something that I learned from his kind of more flawed aspects is, um and this is something that I touched on, the episode that I did with ben is social intelligence is really important like we made such an emphasis in that episode that you know, social intelligence is an intelligence and it's significantly important in life.

Izzy: 1:16:40

Bingley is a bit of a master at that it kind of needs to be, because he's not as established and I think this is something that darcy really struggles with earlier on, because he doesn't see the need to be, because he's like this is a country ball.

Izzy: 1:16:51

What do I need to? I don't need to socialize with these people. However, he sees the value in socializing with people that he wouldn't necessarily be of the same social class as when he becomes friends with the gardeners, and I think that journey, where he actually recognizes there is something in forming connections with people, that's really important.

Izzy: 1:17:08

He has that with Bingley already, but then just seems to lack forming it with anybody else yeah I think when he gets to know the garden is better, he goes on that adjustment too, and I think something that I really take from that is the importance of social intelligence in a situation, because he's terrible, he doesn't read elizabeth, does he? Let's be clear, like she's, she's like why are you proposing to me?

Sophie: 1:17:29

and he's just encouraged to carry on yeah, no, he, yeah, it definitely is lacking there. I think, like in like the, the first, um, the meritan ball, it's kind of like no talk, less smile, more would have would have been the way to go in that situation. Um, but like it also I mean, again, as well as you know, guarding himself, people throwing at him. He's also as well as you know that that lacking that social intelligence, I think he's just, he's uncomfortable. He says himself he's uncomfortable among strangers and in those situations. So that's like his worst nightmare. Like let's go to a ball I don't know anyone and everyone is lower class than me, and just a very uncomfortable situation. He doesn't even necessarily really want to be there. He's got Caroline throwing himself, throwing herself at him as well. Like I've just had that really rubbish summer. I don't want to be here. So you know, I think we've all been there when we're at like a event, when you're just like oh, I really don't want to be.

Izzy: 1:18:32

I want to go home. I want to go home. I had one of those recently.

Sophie: 1:18:35

Yeah, it's the worst, just like, oh yeah so it's it's bad.

Izzy: 1:18:40

It's bad, it is bad when you're there with friends and they're all having a good time and you're like I can't say I want to go home because, yeah, I've been there recently you know, go on, don't?

Sophie: 1:18:49

she's not bad, go dance with her. And he's just like, oh for crying out loud, go away. No, I don't want to dance with her, she's tolerable, you know. And then he probably like immediately, was like, oh, maybe it's a bit harsh, um, but like I mean, he didn't do it knowing she could hear him like, true, true, no, he shouldn't have said it, but I think there's a lot going on and I think we've all been there when we just really don't want to be there also like compared.

Izzy: 1:19:17

The thing is because obviously we have two instances we have it with wentworth, where anna overhears him saying like that, she's like so wanted or whatever on all that lot. And then we have it with darcy where he says you know she's terrible, but not handsome enough to tempt me. Darcy is literally probably just like seeing elizabeth from like once like twice now, like just in this one room.

Izzy: 1:19:35

Yeah wentworth has a history with anne, okay, so his is like they were engaged, like yes, literally engaged. So that's really rude, whereas for darcy she's technically still a stranger. So this like off-handed comment, which isn't very kind at all.

Sophie: 1:19:52

No, but if he can't know, you couldn't plan the significance later that that was kind of like a standard, you know, guarded response again to like, you know, I'll stop trying to, you know, pay me off for these women, because then they're going to throw my, throw themselves at me and I'm going to get trapped and blah, blah, blah. So he, he literally like, he sort of in a way didn't mean it like, or at least it was just, uh, oh well, she looks fine, but I'm good, you know, it isn't, wasn't personal, I think is the way, um, and it's just yeah, how he was dealing with a situation he did not want to be in. I mean he, no, and we see him make an effort, like later, like even at the netherfield ball. I mean, um, he asked lizzie to dance and everything.

Izzy: 1:20:38

Um, yeah, okay, his conversation skills are lacking and it's so, it's so hard because she says that dancing's like you know how people fall in love, and then he asks her to dance in the next ball. That's so sweet, that's just. And then he just, he's just bad at reading he's just bad at reading like people, but he's good at picking up on details.

Sophie: 1:20:59

Yeah, and he's bad at like you can't do the small talk either. Like lizzie's trying to do this and he's like and then she's like well, it's your turn now. You're just being silent. Come on, you know she's like such a wit and such a conversationalist and he's like well, I'm quite awkward. Actually I'm not sure, and I really like you now, so I don't know what to say.

Izzy: 1:21:18

Like it's really cute really, and I suppose I mean, yeah, that is his natural character, so I don't want to be like, oh, that's bad character characteristic, like you need to change that, but I do think there is something to be said on working on that. Oh yeah, we all have our areas that we struggle more with and I think there is a benefit in working on those and I appreciate in.

Sophie: 1:21:40

Darcy that he does um, and I think in Darcy the whole bit with the gardeners, like that whole bit of Pembroke. Yeah, it's incredible, like the way he's making. You know, yes, he's bound to be a bit more comfortable because he's in his own setting, but he's making such, you know, lovely conversation with them and parking back to their past that she used to live up there and you know, inviting him to fish and all of this and like, yeah, he picks up on those small things that is just so special, like the fact that mr garden likes to fish and he's like, oh, would you like to fish?

Izzy: 1:22:10

like do you know what I mean? Like he, he's able to build on the layers, so he has this like a very nuanced good, like social intelligence. It's just he doesn't quite know how to apply it, and I think that's because he's not had to in loads of different, varied society, like he's always been used to just being probably, you know, among equals. So I think it's like learning how to communicate with other people from different worlds.

Sophie: 1:22:33

He also learns how to. I suppose I mean, obviously it's why lizzie intrigues him, but like he's not used to people standing up to him and disagreeing with him, you know he's got lizzie. That's like no, I'm gonna say that that's wrong and I don't agree with that, but whereas you know all the women are gonna go oh's wrong and I don't agree with that, but whereas you know all the women are gonna go. Oh yeah, absolutely, mr darcy, I agree with everything that you say. So he's not used to that either and it intrigues him and I think he learns. He learns from that as well, um, and in his, in his reaction, uh, interactions with her, um, as well as it just being like oh, this is quite fun. I didn't know women could be like this. I'm not used to any woman being like this.

Izzy: 1:23:15

I actually think he loves having somebody there to challenge him. We see that with Bingley as well.

Sophie: 1:23:20

The thing I'm going to say about Darcy is what we can learn from him is wet shirts are see-through when wet. It's what we can learn from him and we love it.

Izzy: 1:23:30

We're here for it. We are here for this, oh dear. So true. Yes, oh, my goodness.

Sophie: 1:23:39

Best, one of the best scenes, I think that only one point I'm going to say about Bingley is uh, friends aren't always right, so don't always follow the advice of your friends, even if it's well meant, because it might not, you know, sometimes. Just trust yourself. I think it's what.

Izzy: 1:23:57

Yes, I love this. Yes, sometimes your own intuition is right. It's good to look to other people for advice sometimes, but don't use that as your guiding anchor in life, you know no trust yourself enough that you can make your.

Izzy: 1:24:10

You can make your own decisions. Yeah, you can do it, you can, you can, um, okay, next on my list is colonel brandon, who I have such a fond appreciation for nowadays. Colonel brandon, I really like him. I love that. He shows up for people in need, a bit like like Mr Knightley. He's generous, supportive. Yeah, what lessons have you taken from Colonel Brandon?

Sophie: 1:24:36

Play the long game. He plays the long game, for sure, but no, I think I mean he again, he's another one that's constant, like he's been. I mean that was what Marianne ends up. You know he admires how constant he's been to his first love, even after she died, and I think, and then also supporting you know his ward, in the way he takes that on and like, that's huge Like and just shows his sort of compassionate nature. I think he also.

Sophie: 1:25:15

He stays true to himself, um, throughout the story and as well, even though I say, okay, play that long game, but also, like before he learns what willoughby's done, he essentially concedes marianne like. He's like, oh, this is fun, but he sees, okay, well, marianne and willoughby are having fun. I can see why marianne likes willoughby and he like. He doesn't try and like get in the way or cause problems because he sort of feels like, well, that's her choice and I, you know, I get it, I'm older, I'm probably not as interesting, and he doesn't try and cause problems. I suppose you could say he's not fighting for her, yes, but also he's not. He's letting Marianne dictate where she wants to go. I mean, yes, it's before he finds out the really bad things. That will be done, but true, true, yes.

Izzy: 1:26:08

Something that I love about brandon is, I feel like out of all the heroes he shows the most like kind of unconditional love, like all just all the way through, like he. He really doesn't actually make any action towards marianne because he's like, well, she makes it very clear she's not interested in like older men or men who have already had attachments once. So basically he's been written off and he knows that, so he's accepting, but he's not. Yeah, he wants her to be happy, and even when he finds out about willoughby he's not like I'm gonna go and split them up now.

Izzy: 1:26:44

He's still he doesn't even go to marianne about it. He tells his sister and he's like look, I just need you to know this information about willoughby.

Sophie: 1:26:51

He's not a great guy, but um well, and even it's also he doesn't do that until you know it's kind of common knowledge that well that willoughby's engaged to someone else so he didn't even go and tell this, when you know he thought they could still be together and like engaged or whatever. You know it's. Once you know they, he knows for sure that that's over, he's got himself you know, engaged to a rich woman because, essentially, the the secret of what has happened is out.

Sophie: 1:27:23

Um, it's at that point that he's like I want to tell you this because maybe it will make marianne feel a bit better. But, like you know, he he is still very like aware, aware of it and like not actively trying to destroy their relationship or destroy her, I suppose I know he is such a oh, he's such a hero as well.

Izzy: 1:27:48

Like, think of the lengths he goes to for the first woman that he loves. Like he goes and finds her, like she's in, like a poor house and he like rescues her and then like nurses she still dies, um, but then and then he has to go through that again with marianne and you know he goes and fetches her mom and yeah he just does not expect anything in return, but he is willing to be like such a rock again in that situation in it in.

Izzy: 1:28:12

Who is he like? Who's this guy? He's just this guy who knows their family. Yeah, like it just shows such a it's loyalty and admiration yeah it's loyalty, it's unconditional love.

Sophie: 1:28:25

It's really he's loyal to. Obviously loyal, yeah, loyal to all that. But like you see, he says he's loyal, loyal to people he values in friend as friendship as well, because obviously he, he helps out edward like what he has absolutely no reason to help edward out and it's helping edward out with lucy, it's not even with eleanor, like he just hears that this chap has been you know what he thinks of as really, you know, like um hard done by by his family and says, oh well, well, I can help, I'm in a position to help um, so please can you let him know that like he doesn't need to do that and, like nightly, he doesn't need to be in this, I don't even know it.

Izzy: 1:29:09

Wow, I know I know and like and like um, mr nightly, he doesn't need to be in the spotlight about either he's not like I'm going to do this and I need you to tell everybody in society that I've done this so that I get all like this admiration. Everyone thinks I'm a wonderful person. He's like I'm gonna let you tell him because you know I want to do a good. It's like it's an actual good deed. He's just a genuine person.

Sophie: 1:29:33

That's like, you know, an random act of random act, a random act of kindness is essentially what that is, because you know he knows that they know edward and that they've spoken highly of him, but he doesn't know him. But he's still like yeah, that that's enough for me to be like yeah, I've got, I've got this living. He can have it.

Izzy: 1:29:52

Like yes, yeah I love that.

Sophie: 1:29:56

He is he's, yeah, he's good. Hey, older men are great don't write off the older older men are brilliant. This is what we take from. Older men are good. Get yourself you've got life experiences.

Izzy: 1:30:11

They've got resources. They're generous with their resources. Love this yeah, we love this. I'd say my only qualm with colonel brandon is that he's not so assertive. Again, that kind of bothers me. I mean I say this but then we have wentworth who is assertive, and that bothered me.

Sophie: 1:30:31

This was like in all the wrong ways, I think wrong ways, friend yeah, I think he isn't assertive for the right reasons a lot of the time, like with Marianne, because he's pretty much like which. He's basically said no, yeah, so he's not going to be assertive because that wouldn't, you'd be like, hey, back off. She said no. So I think he's just respectful, I think he's just a really respectful guy.

Izzy: 1:31:03

Oh, I love that. Yeah, I think that's a great way to describe him. I think he is as well. I think there is something to just like taking a step back and letting somebody figure out their own path, you know, and not being so intense and, yeah, just like asserting yourself in their situation, just because you want something from them.

Izzy: 1:31:16

Like he's willing to be on the sidelines. Like you said, he'll play the long game and it's never too late for love, so he's he's just gonna hang on in there and he knows things will work out for him and I I love that. I actually think brandon needs more praise than he gets. I think he's often put pushed to one side by people because he is older and it's a bit like yeah but's older. Blah, blah, blah, but Natalie's older.

Sophie: 1:31:38

There can't be that difference in age, yeah.

Izzy: 1:31:41

Yeah, he's the eldest.

Sophie: 1:31:42

Come on, so let's put some love on Brandon. No, yeah, no, he's a good one and I say honestly for me, I much prefer him to Edward Ferris of the two in that novel Me too. Ferris, bothers me ferris. Yeah, I'd run over ferris.

Izzy: 1:31:57

Oh, let's move on.

Sophie: 1:31:58

Then let's do edward like, not as much as bertram, but he does bother me. I think, like you may, you can learn things from him. Like you know, if you're in something that's not right, have the courage to walk away, which he doesn't do um, don't commit to things too quickly and, you know, don keep secrets, which are inevitably going to come out in the end. However, I think he's difficult, like I think he's a bit I don't know, I don't like to use the word pathetic.

Izzy: 1:32:33

Wet lettuce is my usual term.

Sophie: 1:32:36

I'm like you know he has all that lovely bit with Eleanor and I don't think Eleanor made it a secret that she was getting on really well with him and all of this. But then he doesn't have the courage to tell her then which he should have done. He should have told her at Moreland, like he got so close and then like chickened out.

Izzy: 1:32:56

Oh God, could have saved everyone so much hassle.

Sophie: 1:32:58

Yeah and and then, yes, we've said, obviously it's a lot harder for, uh, men to get out of engagements, yes, and you can say he is loyal to lucy and he's still loyal to her, even when he's disinherited, like so that is an admirable quality.

Izzy: 1:33:16

But I don't know, he just doesn't do it for me and I think, like when you compare to like brandon and the things that brandon's done, it's like mate nah yeah, my, my issue of edward is he just kind of floats through life like that, like brandon comes and rescues him, like he very rarely has to take action for himself, something that I I try and see that on the positive, that I'm like the guy's kind of anti like hustle culture and I kind of get on board with that like slow living.

Sophie: 1:33:49

He doesn't want confrontation.

Izzy: 1:33:50

Doesn't want confrontation, just wants his chickens. But then I'm also like sometimes you have to be the master of your own life, and edward seems to really struggle with that and I this is gonna sound really harsh, but I actually just don't think he has business dating like that's absolutely fine if you want that, but don't bring a woman into your life. Then like, just live, live your own life, edward, have your chickens. But if you're not gonna, yeah, take the helm. If you're not, because women can't go and get jobs, like eleanor would be reliant on him, like you, really you need to show up with more action.

Sophie: 1:34:24

He's gonna like wear the trousers in that relationship exactly, exactly.

Izzy: 1:34:29

You know what in that in regency england that's not the one I mean people are welcome to whatever types of relationships they want, of course but given the time period, it's not practical. It's not practical at all. It wouldn't be practical for me. Now I'm very clear, but it's just not. No, you're like, you need to be able to take actions, you need to be able to lead your family, but then also he wants to be a clergyman.

Sophie: 1:34:51

You've got to be able to lead society?

Izzy: 1:34:53

yeah, like this is not. These are important skill sets. Edward, you can't float through life.

Sophie: 1:34:57

I mean what if lucy hadn't um transferred, transferred her affection, the robert transfers the other brother. Um, he would, he would have just married her. And he like, even if you take out the whole, you know it was hard for him, but he like, in the, you know, even in like the concept of a novel where, you know, jane austen is made up, I still think Jane Austen even would have been like yeah, well, he's married Lucy because he hasn't got the balls to yeah yeah, and again would have put Lucy in a terrible situation.

Izzy: 1:35:31

Like for all Lucy's flaws, she makes the best decision for herself, I would say because I mean she's looking out for herself yeah, which? Yes, I know, there's the terrible character I have lots of issues with lucy, let's be clear. But at the same time, like I said, women have very few opportunities. Back then, lucy protects her own interests in that moment.

Izzy: 1:35:53

Edward, like you said, he would have just married her, yeah, he would have just married her, had no money, had no idea of how he was going to sort it out. He's lucky that brandon comes to the rescue. I think the guy's very problematic and I don't think he has any business dating yeah, he's just.

Sophie: 1:36:11

He just ends up being extremely lucky, but it's because of everyone else around him doing stuff that he ends up with ellen and the one he wants to be and with a living that will do them okay. You know they will be okay, but it's purely because of everything that's going on around.

Izzy: 1:36:29

It's not, um, because of things he's done no, and I think he has a wonderful heart, I think, oh yeah, a kind person and he seems like really sweet and interesting. But I just think he needs to grow a pair a little bit because and I get that he's shy and he owns that and I love that he's, you know, self-reflective enough to be like I'm a shy person. These aren't my strong suits.

Sophie: 1:36:53

You know, being the firstborn is troubling, troubling for me and it's like you know, I love that he owns all of that but he's yeah, this is not. And you look at like Darcy at nightly he's got a lot. You've got Edward Ferris and it's like oh man, he's a firstborn too. Yeah, no wonder like his sister. Yeah, yeah, he's not showing up.

Izzy: 1:37:14

No, yeah, he's not showing up like a first, he's not even showing up like a second born. He's showing up like the youngest child right now.

Sophie: 1:37:20

Isn't he a friend? No wonder his sister and his mum are like no, he will be doing great things.

Izzy: 1:37:28

And no wonder they're disappointed in him. Yeah Well, there is that, isn't there.

Sophie: 1:37:32

I just think sometimes you just can't be the victim of your own life, you need to be the hero of your own life, Edward Sort yourself out. You haven't got a choice. Like he is the firstborn, so he, like the firstborn, you know, didn't really become a clergyman, even if he wanted to. Like that's just kind of like, you know, I'm sorry, woe is you, but like that's just not what happened, you know. So you need to, I suppose, I suppose, take some responsibility. He just really isn't taking responsibility.

Izzy: 1:38:02

No, he has many yeah, he has many women in his life that he needs to look after and he really does not step into that role, and that bothers me massively. He has his mother, his sister I know his sister's married but the grand scheme of things, he has his sister, he wants to get married, so he's gonna have a. How are you showing up for these women, edward? How are you providing for these women Like? Through Brandon is the answer Brandon. Again, Brandon steps up as the main man.

Sophie: 1:38:30

Oh saves the day. Oh man, bless him. Yeah, and I'm afraid Hugh Grant's portrayal of him did nothing for me. Dan stevens improved him his portrayal in the 2008 hugh grant just the hugh one.

Izzy: 1:38:44

Hugh's one cracks me up, though it's funny. It's funny like when he walks in and he sees lucy and eleanor and he's like, like wanted to reverse out like no oh man, so funny. Is there anything else you want to add about edward?

Sophie: 1:39:04

um marry brandon.

Izzy: 1:39:12

That's my take away from eleanor, why were you holding out for this guy? You should have gone for brandon, I know, and eleanor's.

Sophie: 1:39:19

I mean, she keeps her family together, like she's got a crazy sister and a mum as well, so she's keeping that all going, and then she's going to keep her own family with Edward going.

Izzy: 1:39:32

Yeah, me and Kayleigh have made that point in the past Like Eleanor will be in a situation where she has to be the, the, the leader of their family and I just don't think that's fair at all. I think she's dealt with enough. I think she deserves to look after 19, she's young, she was just. She fell in love with this guy, but I'm sorry this guy's not showing up with the right attitude, so did you know she's not gonna look after her.

Sophie: 1:39:57

Did she fall in love with him? Because it's the first guy that came along and showed her? You know she's not gonna look after her. Did she fall in love with him? Because it's the first guy that came along and showed her? You know, like they wouldn't have seen that many I think that's possible.

Izzy: 1:40:07

I mean, oh, maybe that's something you can take from edge, which you know be yourself and women will flock, apparently, because look, he gets lucy, then he gets eleanor, like be, be the shy guy mar Marianne's like hell no. Marianne's like you're a loser.

Sophie: 1:40:22

She's like what do you see in this man? And I'm like get it, I need a man that's going to like ride through the rain for me, which?

Izzy: 1:40:30

he does when I sprain my ankle.

Sophie: 1:40:34

You know he does, she gets what she wants.

Izzy: 1:40:38

She does, she does, he does you get, she gets what she. She gets what she wants, she does, she does, and I love that for her. Okay, then do you want to wrap it up there then?

Sophie: 1:40:43

yeah, I think so who is?

Izzy: 1:40:45

who do you take the most from? Is it darcy? Yeah?

Sophie: 1:40:47

do you learn the most from darcy yeah, and like that's not just because he's my, like, my favorite, it's my favorite novel. I think there are just so many parts of his character and his story and his relationship with his sister you know all the responsibilities he's got, relationship with Bingley, and just the story goes on and the fact that it is a character growth for himself, not for anyone else. I just think there is so much to take away from Darcy.

Izzy: 1:41:21

I love that. I think there is so much to take away from Darcy. I love that I think there is a lot to take from him. I think for me it's it's tough between him and Knightley.

Izzy: 1:41:25

I I really love the way that Knightley shows up for his community and I I try and take that on board. Um, I think we can probably both say that for ourselves, like building communities and everything there is something for showing up for for your, like, your little communities that you build as jane austen communities, you know it's showing up, showing up in the best way that you can and supporting people is is massive. Um, and being inclusive and everything like and mr knightley really does that and I I love that about him they have, they, they.

Sophie: 1:41:53

I mean they both have huge responsibilities but unlike some of the men in austin's, they, they don't shy away from that responsibility and they, they deal with it and they handle it, and they handle it really well. So we're here for that older men are better. It's basically the takeaway give them some time they shall mature like fine wine men men and wine. They're all better older men.

Izzy: 1:42:19

I saw a post that was like I like my men, like I like my whiskey.

Sophie: 1:42:23

It was like scottish and old love it. Oh, I like my men, like I like my coffee, like, oh, was it dark. Oh, I can't remember what it is now, but there's another one to do with that as well.

Izzy: 1:42:36

Mature yes, I like my men, like I like my cheese mature chad oh, yeah, oh dear, that's funny, um, do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? Yes, um, I know you have balls and everything coming up, so do you want to let people know, like, what's going on and where they can find?

Sophie: 1:42:55

you Come on over to my social channels at Laughing With Lizzie, main one being Instagram. You can also find me on Facebook. You'll see on there. I am starting to host a couple of balls throughout the year, suitable for all levels, beginners. They've been really fun so far. You need to come to one, izzy, I will be. You'll see all information about that and about any other events um that I've got going on on my social channels, or um, you can send me an email at laughing with lizzie at gmailcom as well, to get any information about anything, and do come say hi. I always love to hear from people and you can just see all my, all my regency nonsense over on my page, which is what it makes me.

Izzy: 1:43:40

Yeah, yeah you know I'm excited and I will tell all the information below, as always, guys, but I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'd love to know what lessons you've taken from jane austen's heroes. Um, drop them in the comment section, the q? A on spotify, or just dm me and, if you love, if you love Edmund Bertram.

Sophie: 1:43:59

We want to know.

Izzy: 1:44:00

We must speak with you. We need to know, we need to know these reasons. You know, I'd actually be really fascinated, because if somebody's got some really good arguments of why Edmund Bertram is a great catch, I want to know about them. I want to change my perspective on this guy.

Sophie: 1:44:15

And even maybe Ferrer's. I mean we didn't do him, didn't this guy?

Izzy: 1:44:17

and even maybe ferrers, I mean we didn't do him, didn't paint him yeah, we didn't do him great and I have a full episode about singing his praises. It changed. Reading about proposal etiquette changed that for me, so now I might have to readdress him again and be like friend. All the reasons I thought you were great were actually just social etiquette and I'm disappointed in you so yeah but um, you can find me over on instagram at will be austin.

Izzy: 1:44:40

I'd love to hear from you as well, and you'll get all updates on the podcast over there. But that is everything from us today and we'll see you in another episode.

Sophie: 1:44:48

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