Ep 44 & 45: Cross-Novel Matchmaking, Imagining Romantic Pairings in Jane Austen's Universe
Caily is back on the pod and we are taking on the role of the ultimate match makers and pairing up couples from different Jane Austen novels! ranging from power couples like Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Knightley to the quieter pairings like Edward Ferrars and Fanny Price, we hypothesize a gamut of romantic possibilities. Heat up your teapots and ready your crumpets, Austen lovers, because it's time for a literary matchmaking party! This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way. We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it! Please follow and subscribe to keep up with all the upcoming episodes. Where can you find Caily? Where can you find Caily? Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope Episode 2: A defence of Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility Episode 5: Discussing Jane Austen's most awkward characters #AwkAustenAug Episode 7: Jane Austen Villain off 2021 | Wickham v Willoughby with Caily and Ellis Episode 9: The power of the letter in Jane Austen's work Episode 12 & 13: Placing Austen's Heroines into Harry Potter Houses. Episode 22: Villain 2022 | Caroline Bingley v Isabella Thorpe Episode 28: The other Jane | A Jane Bennet Character Study Episode 37: Unpopular Opinions Pride & Prejudice | 2 Year Podcast Anniversary Ep with Caily
Hi J Knights and welcome back to the what the Austin podcast. Kaylee is back on the podcast today and we've got another fun episode lined up. We are going to be covering cross novel couples I think that's probably the best way to describe this. So we're going to be matching characters from some books to other books. So, for instance, we could match Emma to Captain Wentworth or we could match Catherine Moreland to Mr Darcy is what we're going with. So we're just going to make some kind of fun crossover matches so we think might work. We're going to explain why we think they work and, yeah, it's just going to be a fun episode. We hope it gets you thinking about, you know, couples that could be in a parallel universe. So, yeah, I'm really excited to do this. Kaylee, are you excited?
So I'm so excited to do this. We initially were kind of going back and forth between making it just main character crossovers or adding in side characters, and we decided to just do the main heroines and their love interests. Although we can't help it, there were a few main character side characters that we thought would be great together. So we're really curious to see what you think.
There are some such good picks for some of the side characters that I was just like I've got to keep that on my list. I call it not.
Absolutely, oh my gosh. And it was so funny to do this exercise too, because certain crossover pairs I thought of immediately and I kept it and I really visualized this relationship. And then other crossover pairs. I could not see certain characters with any other character. I really saw them with their original character that Jane matched them with. So I'm so curious if you had similar thoughts.
Oh my gosh, I did. And I've got to be like totally honest, like I think we maybe came up with this idea a while back, but you definitely ran with this more than me. And then, when I started to plan it, I was like, how am I going to do this episode? I can't think of anything. So I definitely found it difficult, but then I did stop coming up with a few that I was like I kind of feel this. So I'm excited, as a lot of you who watch on YouTube will notice, like I'm in a different space. It's probably going to be the case for a couple of weeks now, if you're interested in Tarot at all, I am going through what most people consider a tower moment. So there's so much change going on, which is why I think just like a fun episode is definitely needed at this point. So I'm so glad that you're back with me, kaylee, and I've got my espresso martini, but considering Kaylee's in the US, she's got coffee. Right, you've just got standard coffee.
I've got my Jane Austen mug here. It's one in the afternoon, but I like fully support this espresso martini situation. I'm curious. I wish I had something.
It is the evening for me, so it's OK. It's fine, guys, you know, oh, my gosh girl.
Yeah, I think we've both been having our tower moments, so this is just going to be a fun stream of conscious episode, and we're OK with it being a little more disorganized. Sometimes. That's when our best ideas come out, so I think so.
And you know a lot of people listening. I was saying to Kaylee you guys loved the Unpopular Opinions episode and so we're definitely thinking of just like fitting in more kind of fun conversational episodes like this in. I think we're definitely going to do some more unpopular opinion episodes because that was really fun and obviously you guys really enjoyed that. So there will be more of that kind of thing coming as well. But are you happy to jump into today's topic? Start matching some crossover novel couples.
Absolutely. And speaking of unpopular opinions, I think some of these couples you know there will be a lot of head nods and then I think other people have matched will be very unpopular opinions. So, again, so, looking forward to hearing all the feedback, we're going to make side to it we too, and it's going to be so fun to see where we align and where we disagree. Ok, I'm going to start with a couple that I feel really passionate about, and I saw them together from the beginning and, as I kept overthinking, they stayed the same. I think that Mary Ann and Captain Wentworth would be a really amazing couple together.
Oh, interesting, so I didn't have that one on my list. I want to hear your reason and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Ok, so I think that they're both incredibly passionate. They both have these steadfast beliefs around love and propriety, and we're going to start over because Mary Ann doesn't care about propriety. That wasn't the word I meant to use. Ok, let me just look at this for a second. Ok, passionate, ok. So the reason that I saw Mary Ann and Captain Wentworth together is they're both extremely passionate and they're very steadfast in their convictions. Mary Ann has this view about love. There's this quote where she says to satisfy me, she has this quote where she says he admires as a lover, not as a connoisseur. To satisfy me, those characters must be united. I could not be happy with a man whose taste did not in every point coincide with my own. I must enter into all my feelings. The same books, the same music must charm us both. She's very, very intense about her beliefs, and Wentworth too.
His dining room scene. Oh my God, that instantly came to mind when you're reaching the Mary Ann clover.
Exactly right. He's so passionate and he gets so angry if people don't agree with his convictions. He gets really upset that Ann is persuaded out of marrying him. And when he has this conversation with Louisa too, she says if I loved a man as she loves the admiral, I would always be with him. Nothing should ever separate us, and I would rather be overturned by him than driven safely by anyone else. And Wentworth goes had you, I honor you. And then Louisa, you know, there it goes on and on. She goes. I had no idea of being so easily persuaded. When I've made up my mind, I have made it. And then Wentworth goes to have such a mind as yours at hand, your sister's an amiable creature, but yours is a character of decision and firmness. I see it's the worst evil to be too yielding and indecisive a character, isn't that?
Oh, but she makes me cringe so bad because, let us be clear, on this side of the ofrend of the table she overhears all of this and she's just like this is a backhanded dig that nobody gets but me Like. Can you imagine it's like the opposite of an inside joke.
It's an inside like dig. I know I do feel for Ann because he is just. You're right, he's just so. It's such an attack on Ann, but it also shows he really has beliefs about. You need to know who you are, you need to know what you want and you need to go after it. And don't you think that's so aligned with Mary Ann and her views of love and how you show love and how loyal you need to be and how over the top you need to be in showing affection to your partner?
Yes, and also the fact that both of them are able to articulate that in front of others. You know they are like no doubts about their deepest values. They're just like. I'll say this at the dinner table because, like, do you remember Mary Ann says that whole comment about, about how she thinks like people can only have one partner. They can't like go on and then love another person. That's like her point on, like Brandon, and she says that in public as well. And it's really interesting that Marianne Wentworth have like so much conviction around their like values that they're literally just like. I will say this in person because I believe this so deeply that nobody will shake this for me and I just think that is very, that's a very specific character trait.
Exactly that was another reason too is I was remembering that exact part where Marianne is talking about attachments and Wentworth has the same belief it's you love someone, you choose them, you commit to them. And what I find so interesting is, although they both have those convictions, they both are betrayed in a sense by someone they love, but then they end up being open to a second attachment, and for him it's with the woman he originally loved, and then, marianne, it's with someone new.
But yeah, it's so true, it's like they're both so steadfast but then, like so much happens to them and I feel like they're kind of shaken by their own actions, like Marianne's shaking the fact that she was so vulnerable with Willoughby and it was like slapped back in her face. And Wentworth has to accept the fact that he was leading Louisa on for a lack of a better term, and then he has to accept the fact that he will have to deal with the consequences of that. He did that, even though, oh my gosh, honestly, sometimes Wentworth, part way through the book, he just really gets on my last nerve of the fact that he does this. But at the end of the day he does lead Louisa on and he has to accept that he will have to marry Louisa because of that, even though he did all of that. And he's like I'm in love with Anne. It's like nobody knows that, friend, just because you know that you love Anne, like nobody else is aware of this and you have literally been caught in a different woman. So I think both of them have to accept the consequences of their actions and then that leads them to be a little bit more. Maybe empathetic is the wrong word, but they just they kind of soften on those like steadfast views.
I was gonna say yeah, I think the word I was thinking of when you were describing that was grounded. I think they're so spirited and passionate and they both calm it down a little bit by the end and, yeah, or more grounded, I think, another. Really it's so interesting because I imagine if Marianne and Wentworth had met and fallen in love, I could see Marianne being really open to Captain Wentworth's sense of adventure and novelty, like, I think, even before he came into wealth. I think Marianne would have agreed to go off with him and she wouldn't be afraid to be a woman at sea, like, just like she has her passion for dead leaves. Can you imagine she'd like look out on the ocean and write all this poetry about the depths of the waves? Like she'd be content having that mobile life with him.
Yeah, and I think something else she'd really appreciate about Willoughby is how expressive he is, like if you think about a lot of the other heroes, the way that they kind of express them like. Think about Niley, where he's like if I loved you less I might be able to talk about it more, but Wentworth in comparison. I know he doesn't verbalize his feelings but he does write them down. There's no showing them up when he starts talking about his feelings, like he pulls his heart out and I feel like Marianne would be so just like susceptible to that. She'd be like oh my God, this is exactly who I'm after.
Oh my gosh wait. Yes, that goes exactly with my next point, which is remember when Marianne talks about how much she loves copper it's hard for me to pronounce it in an American accent. She loves that poet. He's known, as you know, a poet. Hold on, he's like okay. So copper is considered one of the forerunners of romanticism. She loves romantic poetry. And think about Wentworth in his letter to Anne how romantic.
I am half agony, half heart. I mean, yeah, like words where I've could have read it's not Like.
this is deep stuff Right, like dare not say that, oh my gosh, I should hold on, hold on, I don't wanna mess it up. I wrote it down. Let me pull up the sorry. I was hoping you wouldn't have to do any editing, but I just don't wanna if I'm half agony, half hope. I don't wanna like say it the wrong way, let's see. Yeah, like, okay, where is it? I am half agony, half okay. Yeah, I just think I think the half agony, half hope letter, the way he speaks it is such you just know that Marianne would appreciate this so much. I can listen no longer in silence. I must speak to you by means that are within my reach. You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone forever. And then you know, further down, dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman that his love has an earlier death. Like this is the kind of are you still there? Yeah, why? Oh my God, I just realized I had a zoom link open and I went back and I was like she's not here, Okay, all right, never mind. And then later it says dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none, but you Can't. You just imagine Marianne soaking that up Like that could be a romantic poet.
Literally, yeah, she would eat that up Like no one's business. I mean, we all eat that up. Let's be honest, we're all like oh my God, yeah, marianne would love that. That's exactly what she tells her mum that she wants from a man. She's like I want this, like deep, burning, passionate love that somebody, you know, cannot contain their feelings. For me, which is the kind of the problem that she has with Edward, that he just doesn't have that kind of expression when it comes to his feelings. But when we're freely does, like, even though he doesn't, like I said, he doesn't say this like verbally, his letter's so beautiful. And I also think, like, think of all the letter writing between Marianne and Willoughby. Obviously that is a form that she likes. You know, that is something that she enjoys to do with a romantic partner Like Willoughby and Marianne did spend a lot of time together. It's not like they just then didn't like communicate, like they spent like whatever, like a long period of time writing letters after that. So, yeah, I think she'd love it. I feel like she'd be up for that. The only, my only query with it would be the fact that Wentworth chooses Anne makes a lot of sense because Anne is so measured with her feelings and I feel like there's a good balance there. Like Wentworth is so outspoken with his feelings, even the ones that are like you know, like we're saying, like his convictions about his values, and he's really outspoken with that and he's really outspoken with his romantic feelings as well, and it's kind of the opposite that she keeps her cards close to her chest. She isn't just kind of, you know, I'm just thinking now. Well, I mean, I think a really good example of this is the fact that literally none of her family members knew about his situation with Wentworth, like she didn't talk to anybody about it, she kept it to herself, whereas Marianne, everybody knew what was going on with Willoughby. And I just don't know if maybe Wentworth and Marianne are too similar in the way that they love that they would clash. It would be like too much passion, maybe Like too much romance, too much excitement, that how does that translate to like mundane everyday life?
I thought about that too. Initially I thought, okay, if we bring these two passionate people together, will it be almost volatile? Will it be too much? Will it explode Like? Will there be enough measuredness? And I guess the reason I thought it would still work is first of all because they have this novel lifestyle where they're traveling so much, there's so much new adventure where I think they could bond over that. And then I also I was like, is this going to be too much? Like Marianne and Willoughby. But I actually think that Wentworth is the perfect combination of Willoughby and Colonel Brandon. I think like he has Willoughby's, he's like a more evolved Willoughby plus Brandon. Like he's very confident. He knew even when he didn't have money that he was going to be successful. He has a lot of he's, just so passionate. He loves you know the letter that he writes. He has this romantic quality and this directness that Marianne loves. But then he also is responsible, like he makes a career for himself. He's he has Colonel Brandon's loyalty and commitment. And so I do think it would be a fiery one. But I think he's a little bit more, he could be a little bit more measured and I think they could work out. I do.
That's interesting. I guess we can only speculate, but there is the potential that Anne was more romantic in her younger years, like obviously, by the time her and Wentworth get their second chance, they've both grown up you know what I mean. They're like older at that point, like things have changed and I don't think that Anne would ever be on Marianne's level. But there may have been more kind of romantic, naive tendencies. The fact that it wasn't Anne herself who convinced herself that Wentworth wasn't a good match, that she needed to be persuaded, would suggest to me that she was more like, more, I don't know Innocence, innocent in romance. Does that make sense? Like I think like she maybe went like head first in it and then it's been other people who've been like whoa, whoa, whoa, like this might not be a good match. You need to do like a second guess on this, whereas I think, like older Anne, she doesn't do that, she doesn't jump head first and things like she thinks about things, she thinks things through. You know she is the reliable one, she's the responsible one. But I feel like I mean we can only speculate by. I feel like maybe she had more of those Marianne tendencies when she was younger, before she was disappointed before she was heartbroken, before she spent like a decade waiting for this man and then was worried that he, even at that point, wasn't going to come back to her.
You mean she had a decade losing her bloom. Everyone went with this, so mean about her appearance. I love Wentworth, but that is like such a cringe moment.
Oh my God, I was thinking about this earlier. I was thinking I'm not being funny, but doesn't Wentworth have so much like Frank Churchill energy? It like like the first part of the book. Like he really gives me that vibe. Like he's so arrogant in like do you know the way that Frank Churchill kind of is mean about Jane Fairfax in public and Jane can't say anything because they bought this secret? Wentworth really does that to Anne as well. Like he makes comments to her family members in public and makes comments when she's there, and it's not like Anne can turn around and be like I'm sorry, friend, do you remember we were connected at one time? Like Anne wouldn't do you that, like Jane Fairfax wouldn't do that because it would just blow the cover in a sense. But I'm like, yeah, wentworth gives me a lot of Frank Churchill vibes at the start of the book.
I think that's. I think that's fair, I think that's right. The way that, yeah, just how meanly he talks about her and sort of the insensitivity, how he's flirting with other people and what he says when she's around. I think with Wentworth it comes from a place where he's been so hurt and his ego is bruised. So it's not actually how he is. It's like this overcompensation, whereas Frank Churchill I think is more. He hasn't been hurt it. I think it's more like mischievous. I think it's a little bit more like conniving, cunning, even though he's fine, Like he's someone I'd want to hang out with as a friend.
Yeah, that's a good point actually. Yeah, that is true, like Wentworth's had his pride hurt. It's kind of funny that Pride and Prejudice is called Pride and Prejudice and this is called persuasion, because I'm literally just like Wentworth has such intense pride that you know what I mean. It's not the same as Darcy's, because he's not initially wealthy, but like his like I don't know, like his feelings towards himself, he's like you hurt my pride, I knew my worth, I knew my value and you refused me. Like that really hits him, like his ego, massively.
That's such a good point. And then when you said that about Pride and Prejudice but then it's Wentworth with a ton of pride that immediately made me think of Elizabeth Bennett and how she's persuaded to not like Mr Darcy and instead favor Wickham for a while.
Oh, yeah, all these prideful men you know Austin was, she was dishing it out to us. They've got a corner journey, guys. You know they've got to figure this to fow and then they come back. Let them have their emotions and they will come back, you know, yeah.
Yes, wow, darcy and Wentworth A lot of pride going on there 100% Okay.
Do you want to do you want to move on to the next pick, or have you got more you want to add for Wentworth and Marianna? I think that's a good place to start. I think so too, I think that was.
I think that was it with them. One quick question Is it easy for you? I know with the audio it's easier to edit. Is it easy to edit with the video too Like?
video is always harder to edit, but I'm not being too sentimental about it. I'm just like cutting where I need to cut and just like yeah, okay, if it's like chunks like this. Like the hardest episode I've had to edit video wise was actually the one that me and Elle did because we went chronologically through the book and we both made our notes differently. Oh my God, it was hellish. We had an hour 50 and that's only two hours worth of content to edit. It's been horrific to edit. Yeah, it's been really, really tough. And because we did our notes so differently, it was like we had to keep stopping for us to align our notes. And then I also, when I was listening back, it is a good episode. But I was also like wow, people really need to know the book to know what we're talking about. Like I was like you will have to have read Emma a few times to follow what we're saying. Because it was like detail on like the Jane Fairfax, french Churchill situation. Like we pick on the, the clues that appear before the announcement of the engagement, so they're like really minute, specific details. So I was like wow, that's really. And also it was like very flowy in the sense that we were talking about, like the narrative and like what's happening in the plot in particular moment. So I was like, when I was listening back, it made me really realize that. I was like, wow, you'd really need to know, I don't know, it was just like it's made me realize that I think doing things like that, like in a linear sense, like this is like at the start of the book all the way to the end. It takes way too long, like it has to be theme based, I think, to keep it concise, because I was like I can't cut that, that episode into chunks, whereas this I could, like I could do, like would Marianne and Wemworth be good together? That's like a clip in itself, like do you know what I mean? But that one I just I'd have no chance like cutting it into chunks.
That sounds really complicated to try to edit down and organize. I am not empty.
Yeah, it was hard. Yeah, no, the final cut was one hour 30. So I cut out 20 minutes, but most of the 20 minutes was like us having like. But it was awkward because there was times where it Elle would start to move on and I had to be like, oh, wait a second, I've got something else to add there. And then I'd have to try and pick it up in a sense, or I'd have to ask her what she had next on her list and then I'd be like oh, you're just going to have to give me a second so I can intro this next bit, so that it it actually flows on Cause, like when I'm recording, I think of it in an editing sense as well. Does that make sense? Like I'll be like thinking about it. I'll be like, okay, I'll either say to people like oh, you need to say that again, or I'll put an intro in so that it fits the clips together, like the whole episode fits together, as opposed to like you can't just start something like talking about something mid sentence, because it doesn't work.
God For me editing, yeah, but that was like that episode was difficult because a lot of it was mid sentence, like mid topic. So it's a little bit. Yeah, you will, I think it. I don't. I'll see how it like goes with people. But yeah, people will need to know the book really well to follow along with it. But it's okay, so it's what it is. I'm trying to just like. I'm just like you know if I can get episodes out at the moment I'm doing well, so it's okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, let's move on to the next part.
What I'll say, too, is anything that it would be easier to jump on and redo or like, don't hesitate to be, like, can you say that again, if anything helps with like editing stuff, okay, so I would say I'm curious what you think about this one. This was another couple that I really saw working. I know you have your opinions about this heroine, so I'm so curious. Oh God, I'm scared. I think Edward Ferris and Fanny Price would be a good couple.
I think I had that on my list. I'm going to check. Yep, I had that on my list as well. That was the only match I could make for Fanny. I don't know about you.
That was one of the first crossover couples that came to mind too. Do you want to start with why you chose them, or?
So for me it was kind of like it's not that I think this would be a perfect match, but I think they would be happy together. I think they'd definitely be super private. I can't see there being much passion in the relationship, but I think they would be comfortable, they would have a happy married life. Obviously they're both inclined towards Christianity, which I think would help they have their religion in common. Obviously Edward goes and becomes a clergyman and Fanny is like a pretty devout Christian. I think she is the most. I think Mantle Park, out of all the novels, is the only one that emphasizes Christianity. I don't see that. I don't feel that in any of the other novels at all. I think Fanny, more than any of the other heroines apart from Eleanor who obviously ends up with Edward is the fact that Edward gets cut off wouldn't bother Fanny at all, because Fanny comes from nothing anyway. So the small amount that Edward can create for himself would be enough for Fanny. She would be able to manage that. I think that would actually be really handy for someone like Edward, because Edward's not very forthcoming, he's not an action guy. So I mean the fact that Fanny could really handle the small income that they have and be really happy on that. Every time I think about Fanny, I think of her in her bedroom where she really is grateful for the small things that she has her little bookshelf she really loves. It's just the small possessions. She's very minimalistic and that is the life that she would have with Edward, I would say.
We are so aligned on this. You made all of the points I was going to make, I think, absolutely agree with you. I think Fanny would be content to live on a minimal income. You can just see her supporting him as this clergyman. You can see him, or you can see her helping him rate his sermons. She's so well-versed with the Bible. They're both very pious. I think they both also have this commitment to honor, commitment to doing what's right. She similarly to Eleanor, I think would have really valued that he stayed with Lucy Steele and didn't break his word.
Yes, I think Fanny would have liked that more than Eleanor. Fanny's moral compass is so strong. It's so important to her that, even if she is at a disadvantage when people stick into it, that's more important to her If you think about the thing with the performance and the theater situation. She is so adamantly against that. That just goes against it because she doesn't want to upset. So Thomas and I'm just like, yeah, she's very family first and I think that would actually play in Edward's favor, like she's so loyal, so committed.
Absolutely yes. The way she stands up about the play is so values aligned and parallel to the way that Edward stands up to Lucy and even though they're both known as shy or more in the background characters, when it comes to their moral compass they will stand up for what's right and I think they would admire that in each other. I also they're both shy and meek and I think they're okay both of them with living in the background a little bit. I really think so. Like he, edward, gets overwhelmed by people whose personalities are too loud. I think he's even like a little bit intimidated by Mary Ann, people with who are really overly direct, and I think Fanny's a bit the same way. I think where they're different is Fanny, I think, just like you said, will take charge and be a little bit more decisive. Edward's super indecisive and I think she could help him in a practical sense and I think she could ground him, like bring him a little bit back down to earth. I have this quote about Edward he was too diffident to do justice to himself, but when his natural shyness was overcome, his behavior gave every indication of an open, affectionate heart. His understanding was good. His education had given it solid improvement. Yeah, I just think, and I think for Fanny, when she gets annoyed with Edmund is when he goes off and is hanging out with Mary Crawford and other people. I think she just wants someone where she can be in the background with them. But she knows that she's the number one priority. And I see Edward liking that. She grounds him. And then Edward I can see him fawning over her and like giving her the attention that she needs.
Yes, I have a few thoughts on this. One is you should be the number one priority. Obviously, people should have other things going on in their life, but I'm not being funny, but Edmund making Fanny plan B will forever vex me. I'm sorry, it's just, it's wrong. Ok, don't settle friends. But then also something that I picked up on what you were saying is they're both so self-aware of their shyness and their ability to be more reserved, and I think that's so beneficial because I think they could both communicate that to each other and be like look, this is what we're, this is what we're willing to experience in the like, our social environment. But also we're both really introverted, so we need time alone in pride. Like we need more of a private life than most people. And I agree, I think for Fanny that would be so much more valuable. Like I don't know, I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of Edmund, but yeah, I think Edward would be able to provide her with more comfort than Edmund ever could. Just like not even, I'm not even talking like materialistic comfort, I'm just talking like soul comfort. Like I feel like Edmund would constantly test Fanny's morals Fanny's, you know her convictions Whereas I don't think Edward ever would, because he is very much aligned, and I actually think it would be valuable for Fanny to be in a relationship where she can take more charge, where she can be the person that does, like does actionable tasks, if that makes sense, and I think she would step up to the plate and do that. My only kind of I don't know my only reservation about that the coupling is if you're the clergy of a village, you've got to be the people that kind of bring the community together, and I don't know if the two of them together would be capable of that. Like if you think about Mr Collins and Charlotte, like they would be quite good at bringing the community together. You know, linking people like Lady Catherine de Berg to people who are just in general society, like bringing that together and like hosting not hosting like big events, but things where it's like you know, as a church community, this is what we do, we want to like help out with the parish, that kind of thing, and I think Edward and Fanny are both so shy that I don't see them reaching out. You know, in that extroverted sense, where they're like come on everybody, let's do this stuff for the church. You know what I mean, and that could actually affect things for the community.
I think those are both really good points. I was really struck by the first thing you said, which is, I think you're right that Fanny, because of her situation, being brought into that house and treated like a second class citizen. She was taught that she needed to be in the background. But I think I think you're right that she's naturally suited to take charge and I think in their relationship she would do well by taking charge and taking initiative. So I was like, oh wow, that's a really good point. And then I think they would be well suited as clergyman and clergyman's wife and her support of him. But you're right, would they be the people who bring together the community? I think that's a good point. I think no. And then that made my mind go to, ah, I wish it was kind of the sense and sensibility setup where Fanny had a sister who was maybe more social and then she and her husband could be more of the social bridgers and like, ah, it would be nice if Mr Bingley was like right next door, mr Bingley and his wife could help, I don't know, bring together the community for Fanny and Edward.
But yeah, yeah, also with Fanny and Edward as well. Just the situation that they both have, like obviously Fanny's like the poorer relation and Edward's cut off, they would both be kind of outcasted. So that makes sense in society as well, which I think would make it harder to bring people together. And I'm obviously you don't necessarily carry your family baggage along with you, but people do know everybody. Well, when we're talking about like Regency England, like gossip does spread and I feel like both of them were quite outcasted, whereas Eleanor and the Dashwoods are quite respected. So I think that probably did Edward quite a favor, you know, like the fact that he was with Eleanor. So I'm literally just like I don't know if Edward and Fanny would be able to generate the respect that they need as leaders of society. Like if you think about the Elton's, the way that they approach being clergy, like the clergyman and wife of the parish. Obviously there's a scale, but I'm like you know, there is that element of you all leaders of society as opposed to kind of people in the background.
I think this is all a really good, realistic point. I think when you were saying that about the Dashwoods, I always think of Colonel Brandon as coming in and saving the day and saving Edward's livelihood. So they would really need a kind of Colonel Brandon character, or maybe a Mr Bingley character, who's so well liked and so gregarious, Someone in society with means and disposition and who's well respected, to make sure that they have the level of status that they need so that people, yeah, come to their parish. That's all such a good point. Also, I had to say when you brought up Mr Elton I don't know why, but this kept coming into my mind I would love to see Mr Elton and Ann's sister Mary together as like the most obnoxious, like frustrated. I just kept. I was like, oh, those two would be together and it would be sickening.
It would be kind of funny, though I would like to see that as well so funny. I love that we had an actual match though the first match that we've got where we've both had a couple on our list, so I love that. Do you want to tell me what you've got next on your list and we'll see if we get any more?
Yeah, I loved it. We had all the same thoughts too. That was awesome. Okay, let's see. Okay, so the next one. This was interesting because both of these characters I initially placed with other people and I think that they could also do well with other crossovers, but I think Elizabeth Bennett and Mr Knightley would be a phenomenal power couple.
Oh my God, I did not pair them together. I don't think I paired anyone with Elizabeth. You know I had a lot of pairs with Mr Knightley but yeah, I had none for Elizabeth. So I'm fascinated to know your points. I want to hear.
That's so interesting. So I had two for Elizabeth All right, I'll start with and I had multiple for Mr Knightley too. Okay, so I'll start with Elizabeth and Mr Knightley as a power couple. I think both of them, I think, have this social savviness about people. I think that they can read people extremely well. Particularly, they can see when manipulation is happening. And I could see the two of them being really intelligent in a room seeing a lot of malarkey going on with other people and just both of them making eye contact and smiling at each other and just this knowing look of oh my gosh, this is this ridiculous thing that's happening. I think they I had Mr Knightley initially partnered up with other heroines. I respect, but when think about Mr Knightley with Emma, I think he's so attracted to Emma's spirit and I actually think of Elizabeth and Emma having a similar liveliness. Like, elizabeth says that she loves a good laugh, she loves getting into these intellectual conversations and debates and Mr Knightley is entertained by that. He likes that and, yeah, I sort of. I don't know what are your thoughts on those preliminary thoughts?
No, I love that. I think it's so true. I think what separates Mr Knightley from having a female friend to a female lover is the liveliness. So that is actually what he's romantically attracted to, because there's so many women that he can have friendships with that don't have that same liveliness as Emma and Elizabeth do, that same kind of headstrong, outgoing nature where they just say things and they're just like they have fun with life. Because if you think about, like, his friendship with Mrs Weston and you think about the respect that he had for Jane Fairfax, they don't share the same characteristics as Emma and Elizabeth. So I agree with that. I think that is what he looks for in a romantic partner and I do kind of love it. They're both so intellectual. So I can see that, because I feel like Elizabeth really does thrive off that Like. If you think about her I mean this sounds a bit weird when I say this now, but her relationship with her father is that they have like this intellectual connection where they can kind of make jokes about people and you're right about the fact that they both observe people in such a detail that they can be like friend. This person's a joke Like, and I think, yeah, they probably would. Yeah, I kind of love this match and I didn't make it and I kind of love it.
He's just being such a strong power couple. I think, yeah, they have such a. So he will admire her liveliness and she will respect his intelligence and goodness, and he has. You know, mr Knightley, you imagine him as sort of a knight in shining armor. He's sort of heroic, he saves the underdog, and I think Elizabeth really appreciates that quality of Mr Darcy, and so I see her liking that for Mr Knightley. I also think that both Mr Knightley and Elizabeth have a strong sense of propriety. Like Mr Knightley, he's my dream man, he's my favorite. The one thing I don't like about him sometimes is when Emma does something selfish or socially inappropriate. He should put her in her place. He's like badly done, emma. Sometimes it comes across as a little bit condescending, and I think with Elizabeth she would know the proprietous thing to do in the first place. And like Elizabeth, with her family too, she'll get embarrassed when her mom and her younger sisters and even occasionally her father, like do something that isn't socially acceptable. So I think Mr Knightley and Elizabeth share that mutual value too.
Yes, I love that. And also they both appreciate time on their own, they appreciate reflective time, and I think that's important and I think they probably would have such a enjoyable private life. They are both really good at going out in society and just being interesting people to spend time with and being likeable people, but I also think they'd have a really I don't know just beautiful private life where they could be reflective and also intellectual. They could have intellectually stimulating conversations with each other and they could spend time with each other but also doing their own thing and be comfortable, and I kind of love that. And it also made me think about what Elizabeth's missing with Darcy, and I think that's that mentorship that Knightley offers. Knightley comes with so much wisdom and he's willing to be like look, this is where you've gone wrong, and I think that's such an important thing to have in a partner Somebody who points out your flaws. Not that they say I don't like this about you. I love you, but this is a flaw. If you want to work on it, that's fine. I love you regardless, but I'm going to point out to you where you've gone wrong in this and I feel like Knightley would be someone who says look, Lizzie, I think you need to be cautious that you're trusting the wrong people in this situation. He wouldn't tell her what to do, but he points out. I'm not sure if that's the right thing, because I feel like Knightley has such a good emotional compass that he can sense when people are like wrong guns. I don't feel right, Like with Frank Church all the way through. He doesn't even need to meet Frank Church and he's like there's something off with this guy. He has such an intuitive nature about him. I think he even says in the book that he's really prophetic. I think it says I don't know if you've seen that and he's almost psychic. He has this sense about people and I feel like Elizabeth would benefit from that, because I think Elizabeth jumps on what people say to her before thinking about it on a kind of deeper level. So I think she'd benefit from that mentorship from Knightley where he's like let's take a step back, let's think about this. You don't have to have facts to accept if somebody's wrong or somebody's not a great match for you as a friend. Sometimes you can just have a bad feeling and that's enough.
Oh my gosh, I love that. That made me oh my gosh. Okay, because I thought when you first said that about Mr Knightley challenging Elizabeth, I thought, well, mr Darcy challenges her too. But I realized it's Mr Darcy and Elizabeth challenge each other in a way that's less healthy. It's like Mr Darcy challenges, but it was in the form of an attack without the emotional intelligence, and Elizabeth would challenge back, but they'd both become so defensive and shut down, whereas I think, just like you said, I think Mr Knightley's social intelligence and I say too, humor would make them be able to challenge one another, but in a way where they could talk through and communicate through something instead of shutting down and separating, and I think that is perfect. I think they are really a match of equals to me. I think they're a power couple. I think they would appropriately really challenge each other. I think they both have this great Ravenclaw and Gryffindor energy about them and I think the biggest thing to me that Elizabeth and Darcy are missing in their relationship is a sense of humor, and I think Mr Knightley's humor and wit would more equally match Elizabeth's, and I think that would add to their communication too, in a positive way.
Yes, I mean, mr Knightley loves a bit of sarcasm, like he's right for that. So, yeah, I think, yeah, oh, oh my gosh, I can't believe. I didn't make this match myself and I just love it. I love it so much. This might end up being my favorite match. We'll see how we go on. I made so many matches for Mr Knightley and this wasn't one of them and I'm feeling it.
I'm so curious to hear who you put Mr Knightley with.
You know what? The majority of my Mr Knightley matches are like queer matches. I was literally just like I just see, I don't know why, but I've just like totally drawn to Mr Knightley being with a man. I genuinely act like. When I was like cross matching him, I was just like there were so many heroes that I was like, wow, that would be such a match and I'm here for it. Do you want me to tell you some of my matches for Mr Knightley? Okay, so I thought about Knightley and Henry Tullney together because I just think they have the best banter and I think both of them are such like you were saying about Elizabeth. I think both of them they observe society, you know, and they don't need to like make a comment on it, but they, inside their own heads, they can be like, okay, this is funny or this is going on, and they can be like, you know, having their own laugh about it privately and be like, oh, this is so funny. And I feel like Henry brings the playfulness to the relationship that Mr Knightley necessarily doesn't have. Mr Knightley can be like sarcastic and kind of, he can get involved with the banter, but Henry's like he's the one that's like let's go and dance and let's go and do something. That's fun, and I feel like he would bring the playfulness out of Mr Knightley, which is what Mr Knightley likes about. Emma and I was just like those two together. Can you imagine they're the most fun like pairing. I would invite them to my parties. I would just yeah, I would just love them together.
Oh my gosh, this you're gonna. I think you're gonna laugh so hard because this all kind of clicks together in a in a just really funny way. Because, yes, I completely agree with you that Mr Knightley is going to be attracted to someone who has a playful energy in this sense of humor, right Like I was. Like I see him, you know, I see him attracted to that. And Emma, I can see him being attracted to that. And Elizabeth. And what's really funny to me is you saw Mr Knightley and Mr Tony together and for Elizabeth, the only two men that I could see her with outside of Darcy, it was Mr Knightley and Mr Tony. Only I had Elizabeth with Mr Tony.
Oh my gosh Steve.
Steve, really I ended up putting Emma with Mr Toney and Mr Naitley is interested in Emma and I just said that Mr Naitley and Elizabeth, I don't know, it's just very funny to me.
That is funny Really. The perfect match isn't a match, it's really just like triple and it's like Elizabeth, henry, toney and Mr Naitley. That is just the best way to make a difference to me.
That is just the best way to make a difference to me. I think Mr Naitley and Mr Toney, just like you said, have that same social intelligence and way of observing people and reading people extremely well. That's sort of in the background.
I just think they'd have so much fun together just chatting through things and that thing, that eye contact, that just laughing about things and making just witty sarcastic comments that not necessarily everybody gets, but they do that. But I also think that Naitley would be able to check Henry Toney in a way that Catherine can't. Catherine is quite naive and she's so enamored by Henry that she just goes along with anything he says. He guides Catherine, whereas Naitley's so mature that I feel like he would guide Henry, which I think that's quite a good dynamic. I feel like Naitley, for whatever reason, would always be in the mentorship role. I can't see him being with somebody that mirrored him in that sense. He has to be with somebody who needs mentorship. He has to be with a student.
That's so interesting. It's interesting you say mentorship because it does feel like in Mr Tony's relationship with Catherine he's the mentor to her. I think they're very cute together, but at the same time it does feel like because she's so naive. Sometimes I'm like is this relationship equal? Sometimes I think Mr Tony needs someone to put him in his place. He gets a little smug. The jokes are a little too much. Sometimes I think Mr Naitley's the person to definitely put a person in their place. So I definitely see that.
Yeah, yeah, that was my first match. Do you want to call one of your others to Naitley, if you have any, or draw me to Naitley. Is the one that I run with? I was like I'll be a list. I was like I can't think of anybody Naitley. I was like I've got so many traces.
It's interesting. I initially had Mr Naitley with Anne Elliott because I just thought that he would really appreciate her sweetness, her judgment, her kindness, and I don't know. I just had them together and I was like something feels wrong and I realized, oh, I think the reason I put Mr Naitley and Anne Elliott together is she's more like a Jane Fairfax character. Obviously I love Anne a lot more than Jane Fairfax, but I think what Mr Naitley admires about Jane Fairfax he would admire Anne. But then at the end of the day I was like Mr Naitley needs someone with that extra spunk and energy and humor like we talked about. So it didn't quite fit.
Yeah, I did play around with Naitley and Anne, but again I was just like I just wouldn't. I don't think there'd be any passion there, yeah, like it'd be respect but not passion, and I feel like you've got to have both really, you know, for like a successful relationship. So yeah, for me I was a little bit not sure about that but I did For the reasons that I was going to pick Anne, I kind of went with Catherine because I was like Catherine has all the playfulness and the fun and kind of the immaturity that Emma has. Also she's more aloof like Jane Fairfax, where she is a little bit more private, like if you think about the ways in which John Thorpe shows himself up constantly but Catherine doesn't call him out for it or tease him about it like someone like Elizabeth would. I think Catherine is really good at just being a bit more private about like what she's thinking and feeling and her thoughts on society, but she's also fun and playful and imaginative and creative, which I think Naitley might, like I think, go ahead. I'm sorry, I was just gonna. I think Naitley likes somebody that he can mold, and I don't mean that in like a toxic way, but I think, like I think he likes somebody that he can see that he's influenced in a positive way. I think that brings him joy and purpose. If he can see people grow like I think he makes that point about Emma. He's like you know, I have like scolded you and lectured you and you were born it like no other woman would have. But for him that gives him a lot of pride and that makes him really happy that he's like I've impacted this person that I love. I've impacted their life. I've made them a better person Not that I don't think they ever they didn't have it in them originally but I can see the influence life had on them and that's important to me.
This is so funny because I agree with all of your arguments and in my, in my head, I'm like wait, would this be the perfect balance of everything At the same time? Like I can't see them together. I can't see Catherine with Mr Knightland I don't know why, because I'm hearing everything you're saying. Like she has the intellectual, she has the intellectual interest that he has that Emma doesn't have, like her interest.
Yes, the passion is having a passion, I swear. Are you still there, you?