Episode 37: Unpopular opinions Austen couples? 2 Year Podcast Bday.
We are celebrating 2 years of the What the Austen? Podcast! Thank you so much for all your support the past 2 years, it’s been so wonderful sharing my love of Jane Austen with you all.
Is Mr Darcy really all that?
Pride and Prejudice adaptions - 2005 v 1995?
Is Mr Bennet the real villain of the novel?
This is a chilled episode covering some Pride & Prejudice unpopular opinions, so grab a warm drink and a blanket and join me and Caily for a fun discussion on some of your hot takes! Here's to another 2 years and beyond Janeites 🤍
Thanks again to our sponsor Haus of Bennet: https://hausofbennet.com/ Use code whatthediscount at the checkout for 15% off! Mrs Gardiner Article for the Jane Austen Literacy Foundation (Pride and Possibilities) Where can you find Caily? Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope Episode 2: A defence of Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility Episode 5: Discussing Jane Austen's most awkward characters #AwkAustenAug Episode 7: Jane Austen Villain off 2021 | Wickham v Willoughby with Caily and Ellis Episode 9: The power of the letter in Jane Austen's work Episode 12 & 13: Placing Austen's Heroines into Harry Potter Houses. Episode 22: Villain 2022 | Caroline Bingley v Isabella Thorpe Episode 28: The other Jane | A Jane Bennet Character Study
Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzymeakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast
izzy:
Hi, Janeites and welcome back to the What the Austen podcast. This is episode number 37 and I've got Kayleigh joining me because this is a, because this is an anniversary episode for the podcast, we're celebrating two years of the pod which is so crazy to think about. two years, that's honestly so mad to me. But it's been such a wonderful journey, so we thought we do a fun episode where we chat a little bit about the podcast journey, but then also we thought we'd do some unpopular opinions and hot takes specifically focusing on pride and prejudice, so I put a request out on my Instagram and I also did a bit of Reddit scrolling because the Reddit feed on Jane Austen is always hot, so I thought I'd do both and then we've picked a but it's gonna be a chilled out episode, so grab a drink, you know, grab a blind kit, chill out with us for a little while, as we celebrate two years of what the Austin.
caily:
I can't believe it. Happy birthday to the podcast and I cannot believe it's been two years. I remember when you reached out to me and asked me to be a guest on one of the episodes and I was just so excited for you to do all of the different topics. You just had so many incredible ideas and I just, I can't believe it's been two years how far the podcast has evolved since then.
izzy:
No, you know what? Obviously I love all the episodes that I end up doing with people but those first couple of episodes you're talking about Colonel Brandon and everything, I thought that was such a great way to start the podcast because I always love talking about the characters that are a little bit more obscure so I love that we went full force into Colonel Brandon as opposed to starting out with someone like Darcy. It was just so enjoyable to do a deep dive on We started that.
caily:
I loved that too. And that's so true. I think when you read a book, obviously, you're dissecting different aspects of the protagonists. And it's really those secondary characters that don't get enough focus all the time. And so I think it's so fun to do a deep dive. And you've done so, you've picked so many amazing characters to analyze. Like I loved the one you did with Edward Ferris too, and Harriet Smith. I think it's just, it makes it so interesting. It's so incredible when you can read the book once and have one opinion about someone and then you read it a second or third time and then they completely change in your mind. So that was, I loved doing that.
izzy:
Yeah, I love that as well. It's definitely something that I've taken from doing the podcast and speaking to so many different guests is, my gosh, like my thoughts and ideas and the books have changed so dramatically over the past two years, just because I've been like absorbing what other people have been saying. And not that it like completely changes my opinion, but sometimes it just adds a different element that I've never thought about before. And I'm like, you know, I can see that. And also just on the Instagram as well, like obviously I started the Instagram before the podcast like the amount of friends and incredible conversations that I've had through starting like the What the Austin content has just been amazing and I yeah I'd love expanding my own viewpoint on Jane Austen.
caily:
You've done such an incredible job bringing in all of these members of the JNITE community. Like a lot of the guests on the podcast, I keep thinking, oh my gosh, I would want to be friends with this person. They're so smart. They're so interesting. And yeah, it's just amazing how you started off the first episode with a deep dive of persuasion. And then we started doing the character analysis. We've done these literature analysis, but then you can also do the fun crossover episodes. Like I love that you did the Taylor Swift comparison and the Disney. It's just, you're so versatile and it's just such an amazing way to look at Jane's novels through multiple lens.
izzy:
Absolutely, and obviously I couldn't do this without all of the wonderful guests who come on and you know Obviously all the guests are friends as well. So, you know, they're support outside of the podcast means so much as well And obviously Kaylee You'd be like a rock my my rock for like this whole process because you know, there are times when it's amazing And I must total high with it all and then those times that it's it's tough, you know It's it's sometimes I struggle, you know to be creative with it and I just get into a funk for you always like you're doing great it's fine we got this you're gonna you're gonna be fine so yeah that's always meant so much to me and I know I tell you that all the time but it really does it makes such a massive difference that I've had you throughout this whole journey.
caily:
Oh my gosh, well I've loved being there with you in the highs and lows. And the reason you'll get down about it sometimes is because you care so much and you wanna put your all into it. And I think that really shines through and there are so many people that you've impacted through this process. And people who feel connected to you and it's amazing to have that community because I think particularly and in the aftermath of COVID, a lot of people have been struggling with their mental health and they need Jane Austen. They need their love of Jane Austen to inspire them and they need other people who share that love to feel connected to. And so that's why I think that this podcast is such an amazing thing too because it brings people who never would have met together over a common shared love.
izzy:
Yes, I love that. I just love the community aspect of it in general as well because before I started the Instagram page and the podcast, I had no idea that the community was even there or how big it was. I don't know why, it was just something that I never thought to even look for on social media. Like, I just, I don't know if you felt the same, like it was just something I never looked for. And then when I started my page, I remember my older brother, he works in marketing, he was a little bit like, I don't know if you're just gonna be like speaking to the crickets, like I support you and like, about your passions but he was like worried that there'd be like nobody on the other end. But he was like I can't believe there's so many like Jane Austen fans out there and I'm like I know right? We're such a massive community it's amazing.
caily:
Yeah, it was the same thing. Quotations really inspire me and ground me when I'm feeling a little lower. And so I started my page not necessarily for Jane Austen, but to just do a quotation a day. And a lot of my favorite quotations are Jane Austen quotes. And I was learning how to use the hashtags. And I wrote hashtag Jane Austen. And I clicked on it. And I found all of these Jane Austen fans. And I was like, what, Austin? That's such a cool name. I love that handle name. And I loved the quotations that you'd posted. And I remember, I think when I found you, you only maybe had six posts or something. And I read it.
izzy:
big spulloes like probably
caily:
We both were
izzy:
family
caily:
just
izzy:
members
caily:
starting out. And I remember right away, I was like, I want to connect with this girl. And it's so amazing what it's turned into. And we got to meet this summer. I just love it. It totally changed my life.
izzy:
I know, I know it's so wild to think. Like, obviously, I mean, we live in like, you know, worlds apart. Like you live in the US, I live in the UK. We never would have met if it hadn't been that we obviously both started our pages and everything. And so that's so wild to me. Like, Star's definitely aligned for us to become friends and that just, oh, it just honestly blows my mind a little bit, but yeah, it's been amazing. Like, just making friends all over the world, just for a fellow love of Jane Austen, I really do.
caily:
And I love how inclusive you are with it too. I think the way you don't have just one approach towards Jane, like a Taylor Swift fan can talk about her love of Taylor Swift and how that connects to Jane. You know, the power of the letters episode we did, literature students I think would really like that and love to look at Jane through that lens. I just think it's so interesting amazing how you bring in all of these experts who have a niche level of knowledge. And you incorporate that and make it just take that part out. I'm rambling. It's fine. Just cut that out. I don't know. But I really think that's true. I like that each episode has a lot of versatility.
izzy:
right? And we're all just normal people, you know, we're not, you know, I mean, a lot of us have ivory degrees on masters, and obviously I was working on her PhD at the moment, but, you know, none of us are, you know, Jane Austen experts out like in society, you know, writing books on Jane Austen or anything. We're just like normal people who love Jane Austen, who are also multi-passionate, so we're able to make collaborations like with the Jane Austens, with the Taylor Swift stuff, and also the Disney stuff and everything. And yeah, I love that because we're all multi-passionate, it's amazing when you can find certain topics that have a crossover. So like obviously I found that with the tale of Swift, with the Disney, with things like Harry Potter. There's just like a lot of people who like similar content who are in the Jane Austen world and obviously that's not the same for everybody. There's people who don't like those things but I just love finding ways in which you know we have these crossover passions.
caily:
Definitely and I also like that certain episodes are just more light-hearted and fun right like even that when we do the awkward Austin August and then other episodes will be more of a serious literature analysis but like yeah they're I really the crossover episodes are phenomenal and I think so many people connect to them so yeah I'm just really glad you're doing this
izzy:
Oh my god, we're definitely bringing awkward Austin August back this year. I love that so much, you know? I knew it started on the Instagram page with like funny memes and everything, but the episode we did was hilarious as well. So I really want to make sure that we find a slot for that this year again, because yeah, I love that.
caily:
Who won again last year? I remember, wasn't it between Mr. Collins, Mary Bennett, and John Thorpe? Wow, what a solid top three. Ha ha ha.
izzy:
Yon's just more like, irritating than awkward but he does make me cringe so bad but yeah and I think was it Mr. Collins who won potentially? I don't know maybe he was married this year because maybe Mr. Collins won the year previous, I don't know. God they're assuming he awkward characters though, like I always think about like the Parmas as well, they're kind of awkward.
caily:
Yeah, you've said that before, that in sense and sensibility, there are so many unbearably awkward and annoying secondary characters.
izzy:
Yeah, to be fair, just in sense sensibility in general, there are so many characters. Like, I think I made this point in like one of the YouTube videos that I popped up. I'm just gonna say that because it's gonna come out like after this anyway. In one of the YouTube videos that I popped up, I actually made a point is that the sense sensibility has so many characters. And that's why I think it's actually easier for people to come to that a little bit later when they're reading Jane Austen for the first time, just because I think it's so easy to get bogged down and some of them have multiple names like Ann where she also goes by Nancy honestly that still catches me out sometimes I'm like who the hell is Nancy like what? Who is this person? But yeah no I yeah I think there's a lot of wild characters and sensibility and I think that just adds you know I think that makes sense so that's the case because there's so many so many like there's two main storylines sensibility as well so it makes sense that there's But yeah, I do like your favorite, that's your favorite book, right?
caily:
It's interesting. Yes, it is. I do love it. I love that there are two sisters. And yeah, I don't know. There's something I love about that. And I also think that they did a really good job about... They did a really good job with the adaptations for Sense and Sensibility.
izzy:
Yeah, yeah. Did you hear Anne's comment on the Disney episodes that sense sensibility is pretty much frozen? But
caily:
Yes!
izzy:
frozen is obviously not magic. I was like mind blown.
caily:
That blew my mind. Oh my gosh. That, I totally see that. That was a brilliant, brilliant connection.
izzy:
I know, I honestly can't believe it. I was like, oh, my days, that is so true. Yeah, totally
caily:
Yeah.
izzy:
mind blown. I feel like somewhat that needs to be proven that the producer's use sensibility or something.
caily:
Well, also the fact that you said that Sense and Sensibility was an inspiration for Taylor Swift. It's Swift's album. That was pretty incredible.
izzy:
Yeah, I love that people are hyping up sense sensibility more. I think that's great, you know? I think there's been a lot of like modern takes on Pride and Prejudice, so I kind of love that. And we're seeing kind of sense sensibility inspiring or maybe not intentionally inspiring, but kind of does inspire some other content, so yeah, I think that's pretty cool.
caily:
There's something fascinating about the sisters and their different personalities and how they're foils of each other. And yeah, I don't know, Marianne's whole journey. I realize I love stories where there's a lot of character development and I think Marianne is one of the characters who evolves the most, along with Emma, I would say.
izzy:
Yeah, I agree. I think Emma has so much. She goes on such a journey, plus I then I love Emma,
caily:
I'm
izzy:
whereas
caily:
so
izzy:
I feel
caily:
sorry.
izzy:
like some people just Emma just not progress whatsoever. She was the same pain in the bum as she was at the start of the novel. And I'm just here like Emma goes on such a journey. Like she's such a developed character by the end.
caily:
Well, I know you love Emma, and I do too. I don't get people's problem with her. I think she's playful and she's fun. Emma's fun.
izzy:
Did I ever tell you about what happened when I was at uni and we were studying Emma for one of the modules? Me and the lecturer having such back and forth fanter about Emma and Jane Austen and stuff. And I was like, I love Emma for X-Line Z reasons. We were having inside jokes on everything. Then went to the next person in the circle that we were on. And she was like, I hate Emma. Emma's a snob. She's stuck up. I was like, okay.
caily:
Acrid turtle!
izzy:
Oh, ew. I was like, this is so awkward now. I was just like, okay. She was like, she doesn't care about the poorer people and everything. I was like, I can see this perspective, but I was like, how awkward for it to come after me where I'm singing Emma's praises like, what a journey. She really develops herself. But yeah, there we go.
caily:
I would have like put my sunglasses on and just retreated into my turtleneck
izzy:
Thank you.
caily:
and then like, okay, bye!
izzy:
Yeah, it's actually such a small class as well. I was literally just like, oh my god. Oh my god. I was like, what if I get around the whole class and everybody else hates Emma? It's just me down like... Big fan!
caily:
Oh my gosh, well I'm glad you stood up for Emma. I think that's a little too harsh of an assessment, I would say.
izzy:
Yeah, yeah, but it isn't uncommon, that's for sure. But in terms of like the podcast journey, because I just want to like chat a little bit about that as well. So we did, it wasn't actually a anniversary episode that we did last year, but it was when we were covering the Harry Potter houses for the heroines, and we kind of mentioned that it was like one year of the podcast. And I think at that point we had, and I think at that point the podcast had 3000 downloads in total, like that was have and as of this date we have 20,000.
caily:
My gosh,
izzy:
Yeah.
caily:
that's incredible.
izzy:
I know, I know. I was like, that's like, a lot. So that's like a massive jump. So I'm just like, wow, that just like blows my mind that people, you know, have been loving the content on which it means so much to me because I do just put so much heart and soul into it. So I'm like, you know, it's amazing to see that. And I try not to get too caught up in the numbers and everything because then you get on like a road of like comparison and everything. And I'm just like, no, I need to, you know, do it because I love it, not because I've got certain stats coming from it. But yeah, it's just nice to see that growth. And I was like really struggling with like, you know, am I doing the right things with the podcast, am I making the right contents and everything? And Nick kind of sat me down and he was like, let's look at like the journey, like let's look at it on a graph, let's see where it's been going. And he was like, you know, even you waste the past even doubling the amount in like a year. So it's like, this is, you know, good sign. Hopefully it's because people are enjoying the content.
caily:
Yeah, and I know that you don't do it for the stats, but with the amount of work that you put into it, it's nice to see the growth. And it's nice to know that there are a lot of listeners out there that you may never meet, but you've impacted them in some way and they're really connecting to the content that you're putting out there.
izzy:
hope so and that's why I'm really excited to start uploading the content on YouTube like this is the first one that's coming out on YouTube. I'm excited just that it's gonna be like such a nice way to grow and also I feel like people can get more connected to me but also to my guests you know you can see our faces and you know see our expressions my over expressions for things.
caily:
I like weird hand gestures.
izzy:
I'm just here like hello but I just think that's gonna be I'm really glad that that's something that I've chosen to do now is kind of like the podcast because I actually really love watching video podcasts. Even if I have it on in the background I don't know why. I sometimes I just really like to see people's faces and I'm just like chilling there and everything. So yeah I'm excited that this is kind of like the next step for the podcast.
caily:
Yeah, I think, I love that too because I think that also just accommodates a lot of different learning styles. Like, I work with a lot of neurodivergent clients and that's one of my biggest passions and some of them like to listen to podcasts that they need some kind of visual too. And so that's just an easier way for them to engage with the content. So that made me really happy as well.
izzy:
Yeah, absolutely, and the more accessible I can make the podcast, the better. You know, I try and do that, obviously, with the transcript. And if you guys didn't know, there's always a transcript available for every single episode, should you need that. And I always attach that at the bottom. But yeah, I feel like the video content as well. I get that, like, I have to have, like, so many things, like, going on just to keep my mind clear. Like, you see, we even have the podcast on, and it's the video version, and I'm doing something else at the same time. Like, for me, that's just, yeah, it makes it easier for my brain to function if I've Bye.
caily:
Yeah, and if you do it on YouTube, you can do captions too, right?
izzy:
you can do captions or if you're like crazy like me, I listen to most things on YouTube at like two times the speed. I don't know if anyone could do that with my voice personally because I know I talk really fast but yeah, I listen to other YouTubers on double the speeds. I genuinely
caily:
Oh, well.
izzy:
can't listen to things like slowly.
caily:
No, that's exactly what I do as well. And I always tell, that's one of the accommodations for my clients that I give is, if you're having a hard time focusing when you have to listen to something, put the video on 1.5 or two times speed, because people with ADHD at least can attend better to people who talk quickly, actually.
izzy:
Yeah, yeah, it definitely makes the world difference to me. I just like switch off if I'm, you know, I've not got ADHD, but I've got ASD. And for me, I just like, my mind just wanders. I'm just thinking about something else, like something super random, like, you know, I don't know, the different colors of different birds or something like something super random. If I don't have it on like fast, you know, it's keeping my mind engaged.
caily:
Yeah, and I think too, some people just like to see the faces, like to see the laughter and just like you said, the expression. So I think this is great and I'm glad that you've taken that step.
izzy:
I know, I'm so excited! And obviously like I started my personal YouTube as well, which I was really excited about because yeah, I'm just really loving creating like this video content, which is handy because video content is kind of taking over the world at the moment, so yeah, I'm just excited to see where all this goes and obviously Kaylee, you're right there with me, my right hand man, right hand woman!
caily:
Ha ha! I am just so proud of everything you've accomplished and we've accomplished and I would love to hear do you have the stats of like the top countries that listen to the podcast?
izzy:
I can definitely check it out. Let me have a look.
caily:
I'd love to hear where people are listening all over the world.
izzy:
That is so true. Let's do it. Let's have a look. Let me have a look. So North America is the top for downloads at the moment and then Europe. So it's just kind of splits people up and then Oceana. So
caily:
Really?
izzy:
yeah.
caily:
Yeah, cool.
izzy:
Yeah, absolutely. So that's really cool. But literally every single continent is covered. that's amazing you know that I know that there's people listening all over that's that's so nice
caily:
It is so heartwarming, every continent.
izzy:
Mm-hmm.
caily:
20,000 downloads. Amazing. That is, ah. I'm just getting chills. That just makes me so happy.
izzy:
I know, I know. I can't wait until I get to 50 episodes because then I get another certificate from Buzzsprout. Like I'm such a weird nerd that I loved getting the certificates but they cut them off at like 10,000 downloads. I was like, no. The certificates I loved those. Oh. So I don't
caily:
What
izzy:
bet.
caily:
do these certificates do? It's just like a little reward.
izzy:
downloadable, but I was like totally
caily:
So cute.
izzy:
feeling them. I used to love getting them through. I don't know why, I think maybe because I tried not to get onto the stats, so when I got the little certificate I was like, oh that's so nice, that's just like, you know, happy achievement day. I've got them all like saved in a folder as well, I kind of love it, but I don't get another one until I hit 50 episodes, which is super sad, but if anyone from Buzzsprout, or if you work for certificate for forever, that would be great. That would be great.
caily:
All right, everyone, listen to the video a second time so we can get Izzy her certificate.
izzy:
Well no, I've got to make 50 episodes! I've got to make 50 episodes before they give me the next certificate. And then I think it's like 80 or something, so... So I'm really sad, because you know, I think we're in like the 30s now, well obviously this one's 32, so...
caily:
Oh, it has to be, you have to make 50 episodes, it's not, oh I thought you were saying 50,000 listens.
izzy:
Oh no, that would be great though if they had a never one. No, I've topped the amount of listen certificates I can get. Like 10,000 downloads was the last one. So the only certificates I'm eligible for now is the how many episodes you've made. But 50 episodes is a lot, right? Like that's quite a lot. Like obviously I'll get there eventually, but yeah, it's been a massive gap between certificates now.
caily:
Buzzsprout? We don't like this sassiness.
izzy:
I know, I should just
caily:
Great
izzy:
like,
caily:
affordable
izzy:
think about
caily:
letter of
izzy:
it.
caily:
complaint.
izzy:
I was like, I need more certificates. I need this validation.
caily:
Make you a certificate, is he?
izzy:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I'm sorry, I've got something to stick in my throat now. It's because I was smiling too much, and I'm like...
caily:
You have a feeling we're in a giggly mood today. Both
izzy:
And if you
caily:
of
izzy:
were
caily:
us.
izzy:
watching, you'd be like, these people just laugh the whole time. We're just
caily:
You
izzy:
having
caily:
know what, there's
izzy:
such
caily:
nothing
izzy:
a good
caily:
wrong
izzy:
time.
caily:
with that. Life's too short. We gotta laugh a little.
izzy:
Yeah, that's true. Although we'll end up with like marks all over our face, I'm laughing so much and then we'll be like, regret so we should be miserable my whole life.
caily:
I just love Jane Austen so much!
izzy:
Okay, right, shall we? Do you want to move on to the content now? Are you happy to do that? Do you think we should chat about something else before then?
caily:
I'm happy to move on to the content. Um, just let me, I just need, I'm, I promise it'll take 10 seconds. I need to just check my work phone to make sure this client isn't going to come. So just so I know for my,
izzy:
Oh yeah, yeah, good
caily:
just
izzy:
for it, good for it.
caily:
one, one second. Okay, we're good.
izzy:
Okay.
caily:
Yeah, so I think that's good. I don't even think we need to use all of that, like you can if you want, but yeah, I think we got some good stuff and then we can just move into content.
izzy:
Okay, great. I'm gonna just hit a marker so that I know where the content starts.
caily:
Cough, cough!
izzy:
Okay, great. So it would be good to move on to some of the topics that we've picked out. So thank you again to the people on Instagram who put some ideas out there for unpopular opinions on Pride and Pre... I was just, it was general and popular, but hang on a second. For unpopular opinions and hot takes. So yeah, on Instagram I had a few come through but I decided to just based off what came through and what I found on Reddit, I think it was easier to just like put it into a category. So, um, yeah, all of the unpopular opinions and hot takes today are going to be Pride and Prejudice based. So I'm really excited to do this actually. This is the first of this type of episode, and if people do enjoy this content then let us know because I'm more than happy to make more episodes like this because I think it's really fun.
caily:
Yeah, I think this is such a wonderful way to celebrate the podcast anniversary because we all love Jane Austen in this community, but sometimes it's absolutely hysterical to see comments from people who don't love Jane Austen or people who have opinions on the novel that you would never think of. So I just think this will be a really good laugh.
izzy:
Yeah, no, I think so as well. I love that as well. Like there's just like, I feel like even when you love Jane Austen, you're always gonna have certain like strong opinions on specific things. Like everyone knows I have really strong opinions on Mansfield Park. So I just love hearing other people's because I feel like everybody takes like a different stance on certain things, which I love. So I am going to, so the first topic that we actually have on the list today is one that came from on Instagram. And I'm also gonna tie it it as well. So the Instagram post said, not Instagram post, Instagram response, that's it. And so the Instagram response said, why is everyone so in love with Darcy if Tilney exists? So referring to Henry Tilney from North Anger Abbey. And the Reddit post said most women would hate being married to Darcy, even a modern version of him, especially because he can't take a joke. He must learn to laugh at himself. The real perfect man is Henry two people saying the exact same thing and I was like, we got to chat about this because I feel like a lot of people jump on that like Mr. Darcy is like this perfect man or like the perfect catch. And I'm like, I feel like Henry does kind of fall to the waist side for a lot of people a lot of the time.
caily:
Yeah, that's interesting and I see both sides of it, but I agree with you. I think Mr. Darcy gets way too much credit. Like he's, I feel like, placed way higher than all the other Austin men and I don't think that's fair. I see why someone would wanna be with Mr. Darcy. Mr. Darcy has that chivalry. and he comes back and asks Elizabeth a second time and disregards his family and his aunt's opinion. I think the reason that people might see Mr. Darcy as a more powerful character is that he really puts himself on the line for Elizabeth in so many ways. Like, if you think about it, he shows up with such effort to win her. character in that way. He doesn't really do anything to fight for Catherine in my opinion, but I would totally, I would totally fall for Henry Tilne over Mr. Darcy I think because he's so playful. He has such a funny sense of humor. They have shared interests. He's kind of witty. He pokes fun at her a little bit. Like he is so charming. Yeah, what do you think about him?
izzy:
So, yeah, I do love Henry, but something that was thinking about from what you said is, do you think it's because of the heroin? That that's the case? Because you have to work harder for Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth is just like, so outspoken, such her own person, like she's just so... opinionated and just isn't gonna take any BS from anyone. And also, you've got to bear in mind that Elizabeth had been fed all of this information from Wickham, He really has to fight for her. He's not like starting on an even playing field here. Like he's got to like build her back up to like a normal level and then make her fall in love with him. Like there's a lot, there's a lot he's got to do. Whereas for Henry, whereas for Henry, Catherine's like smitten with him from the first ball. She's literally just like, when will I see Henry next? I feel like North Anger Abbey is such an easy romance. I feel like that the biggest dynamic in North Anger Abbey Isabella Thorpe in terms of like the romance side of the storyline, I think it's super easy going like they have very little, like they have very little, they have very little, they have very few problems to overcome, you know, they're not really dealing with too much like, oh my god, why can't I get my words out here? They don't have like too many problems to deal with in their storyline. I think the biggest one is that Catherine assumes that killed, that Henry's dad killed her mum, that Henry's
caily:
Mm-hmm
izzy:
dad killed his mum. But I think that's like the only major thing that comes up. Whereas for Elizabeth and Darcy, it's like molehill after molehill, like there's problems popping up all over the place and yeah, I feel like they have to go on such, they have to go on more of a journey. Yeah, I don't know, that's kind of like my thought on it. Like I think it matters what the heroine's
caily:
I completely agree with that. I think Pride and Prejudice, it is a drama. You're right, they have to overcome so much and Darcy has to change so much to win her because just like you said, she has such high expectations for him. Whereas Henry feels kind of apathetic to me. It feels like, with Henry, it feels like he and Catherine are two best friends sitting on a couch about to watch Netflix and they're joking and laughing and playful. And maybe something about that is more realistic to certain relationships. A lot of people say you should end up marrying your best friend. And so I do like their playful dynamic. But maybe it's less dramatic. It's less, yeah.
izzy:
Yeah,
caily:
I'm
izzy:
but
caily:
losing
izzy:
maybe
caily:
my
izzy:
that
caily:
instinct.
izzy:
is a good thing. Maybe that's the point that someone was making on the Reddit post where they said, you know, in real life, you'd rather be married to Henry than Darcy, because I don't know if they could overcome that, like the power struggle that's obviously present there. The fact that Darcy even has the thought process where he's like, you know, I'm going against my family's expectations and, you know, I've got major issues with the fact that you're not very wealthy and your family, you know, aren't great socially. know what I mean? Like I feel like,
caily:
Yeah.
izzy:
yes, I know that he develops from that point in comes to just love Elizabeth regardless, but I'm like, would you want that point of contention? Like, I feel like that could come up again in an argument later
caily:
Thank you.
izzy:
in your life, you know, if you just rubbed each other the wrong way for whatever reason, like, you know, that power, that power dynamic could come back.
caily:
Oh, I totally agree with that. Yeah, I, yes, I totally agree with that. I think what I like about Henry and Catherine's relationship is it feels more natural. And I do see them staying together forever. But they didn't have to overcome that much, like you said. So it's kind of anticlimactic. Whereas Darcy and Elizabeth come from two different worlds, different natures and everything. They have to overcome so much so that by the end when they get together, And they still have a lot to work through and you know, I could see some couples counseling and potential divorce if they don't work out Some more of their issues. I think the grain of hope is that there's a line that that says something about Darcy opens up and mellows out and is a little bit more playful because of a list Elizabeth's influence on him So hopefully that happens, but
izzy:
Yeah,
caily:
yeah, I agree with you
izzy:
I can get that for sure. I think what's great about Henry and Catherine as well as they already have so many things in common, like they have similar interests. Like there's loads of points in the books where they talk about the novels that they love reading, they both love gothic literature and Radcliffe's work. And I think in that sense, that's something that goes beyond just like the romance or the passion that you have for each other and more the chemistry, just like the physical attraction. that's the thing that maybe does like enjoy. I don't think you have to have exactly everything in common with your partner, but you've got to have things that you can do together that isn't, you know, like overly intimate. Does that make sense? Just like the general day-to-day stuff and like activities or interests or how are you gonna spend time together like in each other's company? Whereas I feel like Elizabeth and Darcy is very just like high energy. Like you said, there's like a lot going on. when things are mundane and back to normal, you know, what do you bond over then?
caily:
And it's, yeah, it's very, I love that you said that. Darcy and Elizabeth, it's very serious. I know Elizabeth herself is described as lively and playful and loving a laugh, but she is very, she's very intense with him and a little bit defensive. And so there's just a lot of intensity to that relationship, whereas Catherine and Henry, it's just so lighthearted. And just like you said, you could see them just reading a book together and giggling. sweet about that. Yeah.
izzy:
Yeah, I think so. But Devil's Advocate, I did see a couple of comments on the Reddit posts that said that Henry Tunney's a bit patronizing and maybe that would become an issue like later on. And I see, I don't fully see that myself. I think he's like really sarcastic and maybe this is just because I grew up in like the UK and most people are really sarcastic and just, you know, we kind of take the mick out of each other a lot of the time where you're just, you know, poking fun at people. And he does that, like he's really, really bad for it. And so, I'm like, I don't know if I see it as patronizing, like I just see it as banter, but I'm like, I can understand why other people when you see it is. I don't know, what do you think? This is probably good to ask you, considering you know, you grew up in the US.
caily:
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I see why people would say that he's patronizing, but I agree with you. The way I define patronizing is when you say something like, I know better than you, and I'm going to be pretty condescending about it. And instead of using the word patronizing, I would use the word incredulous. I think he's very socially savvy, and he sees people's flaws. certain social dynamics that Catherine doesn't see. And I think he's kind of incredulous by her naivety. And I think he's kind of like, oh my gosh, she doesn't see that this person's a total a-hole. But he kind of finds it endearing. And so I feel like he's trying to tell her, but in a way where he still thinks it's super sweet and endearing. I don't think he's criticizing her or trying to condescend to her. He's taken
izzy:
Thank you.
caily:
the, well, this is such a British thing to say. I think it's Banter too. I think he's kind of like, is that taking the Mickey? Is that? Yeah. Yeah.
izzy:
Yeah, taking the mic. Exactly. Yeah, that's why I was thinking as well. But that, you know, you just made me think about something there as well is Henry's very good at letting Catherine kind of make her own mistakes or realize like what social or realize what friendships aren't good friendships. So he lets her like figure out the Isabella situation like on her own. And he does say like, you know, he does give a little, a few hints here and there, but like you need to ditch her. Whereas Darcy is, he's really, he interferes in social situations that he doesn't think are right. Like look at the Jane and Bingley situation, like he doesn't go and ask like, you know, Elizabeth like, you know, how do you feel about this? What do you think is going on here? He doesn't ask Bingley, you know, what are your feelings? What do you think Jane's feelings are? This is not a discussion. He's like, I know best. I'm splitting them up.
caily:
Oh, you just blew my mind with that. That is so true. I feel like Henry sees how naive Catherine is and he wants to give her hints, he wants to give her a little bit of a heads up. He does it in a playful way that I don't think is condescending and he's still really endeared to her and he likes her innocence. But if you care about someone and you see a bad dynamic, you don't want them to get taken advantage of, but you're right, he doesn't do it in a way that's super condescending and controlling. Max Catherine enough to let her make her own decisions. That's such a good point. Whereas Darcy is arrogant enough to look at Jane and Bingley, make an assessment of the dynamic that was incorrect, where he's like, oh, Jane doesn't like Bingley. She'd just use him for his money. Doesn't get advice from anyone else, just makes that arbitrary decision. And then I can never get over the hypocrisy that he takes Jane away from Bingley. a little bit now, okay. Oh, yeah.
izzy:
I love that he's like, he tries to make the point that he was being kinder to Bingley by separating him. Then he like, he's got to suffer because he can't separate himself from Elizabeth. I'm like, oh my god. Can we
caily:
Yeah,
izzy:
just
caily:
creepy
izzy:
as well
caily:
in a
izzy:
like,
caily:
way.
izzy:
can we just like Darcy's first proposal? I'm just like, I don't think I'd ever recover from that. and you did some great stuff, but I feel like some of those things would linger in the back of my mind. I'd be like...
caily:
Yeah. Oh, man. I'm like just thinking of all the
izzy:
We're
caily:
different...
izzy:
both just like, we actually hate Darcy.
caily:
Yeah, what he says about her family. Do you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connection? Can you imagine someone saying that to you after they walk into the room? You think they pseudo hate you. You have no idea that they're in love with you and then he just goes, you must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you.
izzy:
Bye!
caily:
I can't get your connections suck.
izzy:
I am like in a world with you friend like I don't know what's going on. I actually love it like the 2005 one that she's literally just
caily:
Ha ha ha ha!
izzy:
like like like like where the hell is this come from? Like
caily:
Thanks.
izzy:
were you on about? Um yeah.
caily:
And then they add the part two, we're at the end of that, it looks like they're about to make out. It's just
izzy:
Thank
caily:
like
izzy:
you.
caily:
the whole thing is so push and pull.
izzy:
it's like so all over the place and then he's like I love how instantly he needs to rectify the whole Wickham situation he's like I must write a letter about all of this like and then like writes his life story like for somebody who's been reserved for most of the novel so far he really just like puts all out of this letter.
caily:
I know. I- oh my gosh. Also it's in written form. Like if it got on the wrong hands and she decided to be spiteful. That part actually, that is very- again they have such an intensity. That was very intense of him to do. But I also thought that was really brave of him to do. Like that he owned everything and yeah. Well that makes me like him a little bit more again.
izzy:
Yeah,
caily:
I'm
izzy:
I
caily:
all over the place too, clearly.
izzy:
mean, he was already vulnerable to propose and for Elizabeth to reject him and not even rejecting slightly to be like, I'm rejecting you and I'm gonna tell you why. You know, I'm gonna lay out your flaws right here. And then to go and write a letter where you basically talk about basically the mistakes you've made in the past and how it's like impacted your family and also being like, I also interfered sister, but I'm okay with that situation that I did that. Um, man, yeah, he really lays it all on the line and that in just like that short amount of time, it's like, you know...
caily:
Yeah, it is so... It is such whiplash, it is so intense.
izzy:
this is going on when so many other things are happening like they're visiting like Lady Catherine you know Fitz Williams pops up on the scene the Collins is a pottering around it's not going wrong.
caily:
I'm tearing around this perfectly to describe. Collins. Oh my God, I love that so much. Yeah, oh my gosh. I bet that Elizabeth, when she rejected him the first time, I bet that was the first time he had ever been criticized in his life with all of the sick of fans and flatterers around him. I bet that's the first time someone put
izzy:
said
caily:
him
izzy:
no.
caily:
in his place. Yeah, seriously. He was
izzy:
Yeah.
caily:
treated like a king.
izzy:
Yeah, yeah, I can see it. And so that's like sometimes why I struggle to to compare the heroes to them, like if they come from such different dynamics, and then the heroines that they're after are so different, which I think Catherine and Elizabeth are. I think it is slightly different. But I agree. I think, I think in terms of passionate, exciting romance that, you know, you maybe want at some point in your life, like Darcy and Elizabeth is like, relationship but I feel like what Henry and Catherine has, what Henry and Catherine have is something that you've... oh my god I'm sorry that's the ice cream van.
caily:
What ice cream van that comes to your house? We said that's it.
izzy:
my house it obviously comes to all of the houses I'm just like my personal ice cream van but um
caily:
you want to go get some ice cream? I'll wait for you.
izzy:
I'm not going to dare, Rhys!
caily:
Oh, that's right. Okay, never mind. That's
izzy:
Really,
caily:
so cute
izzy:
it's just
caily:
though.
izzy:
cruel. He just drives past and places tune and I can't eat any of it. So funny. I can't remember what I was saying there, but I think I was saying that Catherine and Henry is, I think, what you want long term.
caily:
Yes, I agree. I think you want to be in, I think everybody wants that passionate, intense dynamic, like Elizabeth and Darcy. And even on a more dysfunctional level, like Wickham and Marianne, you want that really, you know, just really dramatic, intense emotions. But in the long term, you want something more steady and lighthearted, with share interests like Henry and Catherine. The only thing that I would say I also want long term that I don't know if Henry has is, I don't know if I'd want him to be so far in the background. I do like that Darcy is really stoic and takes initiative sometimes. I think I would feel protected and supported by the strength of Darcy's personality and the action that he takes.
izzy:
Yeah, okay, I think that's definitely something interesting. And I think, so I was just thinking that from my own perspective is, like Catherine and Henry, like Catherine's quite young when they first meet and they basically grow up together. And it made me think of that, like my relationship with Nick is like we met when we were 18 and we kind of grown up together as well. And I'm like, I feel like it's good if you meet younger to have that space where you can still grow as an individual. Like, do you know what I mean? to do or not say to you like, they're gonna be just be like, you know what, this is my thoughts boy. Like I'm gonna let you live your life and make your own mistakes. I think that's good when you're young, if you meet someone when you're younger because you still grow as your own person. Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm making any sense there.
caily:
That makes a ton of sense. I do think the point that you meet your partner in your life has a huge impact. And if it's a healthy dynamic, it should influence the way you show up. Like, I have a close friend who met her now husband. They've been together for over 10 years. And they never would have worked if they had had a dynamic where they had to be front and center lives non-stop. Like they were really good at showing up for each other, being there for each other, but also they went to different colleges. Like they let each other explore their individuality and they weren't each other's everything and that's why they ended up together and are in such a healthy space. So I totally get what you're saying.
izzy:
Yeah, and I think, whereas I know Elizabeth isn't older, but she's older than Catherine. I'm just saying like sometimes when you meet someone later in life, you've already had life experiences. You've also, you've lived independently. You've kind of grown as like an individual and everything at that point. And then I feel like you can be more, I don't know, I feel like you can instantly become a team as opposed to having that dynamic between teamwork and like growing as an individual. I feel like I'm trying to make sense here, I don't know if I am.
caily:
You, sorry, you looked, sorry, your expression, the way you looked at me was like, it was like, I don't
izzy:
Tell
caily:
understand,
izzy:
me, am I making
caily:
please.
izzy:
sense?
caily:
No, no, you are making sense, yes. I totally, I totally see what you're saying. Yeah, I don't know.
izzy:
We do not have an answer, like yes, loads of people love Darcy and I genuinely think that's maybe just because I think Pride and Prejudice is just more well known and more popular and people have seen the, you know, the adaptations probably more than people have read and watched the North Anger Abbey adaptations. of a hero is full of the waistline. I mean do you have a favorite hero?
caily:
Mr. Knightley.
izzy:
Yeah, I'd say probably Mr. Knightley's mind. Maybe like a mixture of like Mr. Knightley and oh, I don't know, oh gosh, now we're getting into it. I'm doing a new YS though, because gosh, that's a hot topic in itself. But yeah, I like Mr. Knightley as well. So I feel like it is different once you've read all the books because then you can take a better perspective if you look across the board of the different qualities and then what you want personally in a person.
caily:
Ah, Edmund was your favorite, is he?
izzy:
do not speak to me about Ed.
caily:
Sorry, Izzy is not a huge fan of Edmund.
izzy:
Edmund doesn't even fall in my hero category, okay?
caily:
Yeah. I get it. Well, you love fanny too, so it makes sense.
izzy:
know,
caily:
I'm just gonna go back to the beginning.
izzy:
I'm starting to think I actually it's not that I hate Fanny is that I actually really dislike Edmund in the fact that Fanny is so into Edmund just bothers me entirely. I'm literally just like, you know what Fanny you could have done so much better with somebody else. I could have liked you so much more had you, you know, gone for someone else because I feel like Edmund is totally problematic. But oh my gosh, I'm gonna get into a hole. I could sit here for like 10,000 hours Let's not get into that.