Ep 8: Disney Princesses x Jane Austen Heroines

Welcome to the 8th episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy, and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Ann from @disneyprincesslessons. This is a really fun episode where we are matching Jane Austen's heroines to Disney Princesses who share similar characteristics. Myself and Ann love both Austen and Disney so we thought what a great way to combine the two things we enjoy. There are so many cross overs between the characters, so it has been fun to look at them in more detail.

Listen to Episode 8 here: https://whattheaustenpodcast.buzzsprout.com/

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Episode Transcript

Izzy 0:16

Hi, Janeites and welcome to episode eight of the, what the Austen podcast. I'm joined by Ann from Disney princess lessons. So, hi, Ann I'm so glad to have you with me.

Ann 0:27

Hey, I'm so excited to be here.

Izzy 0:28

Yes, I'm really looking forward to this episode, but to start with, it would be great to hear about your Instagram page and also your vlog on YouTube.

Ann 0:37

All right. Well, I am a big Disney fan and so I kind of started my Instagram account as a Disney page, but I am a huge fan of princess Belle, and I love reading. I've been a Jane Austen fan for a long time. I love classics. And so I kind of started posting a little bit about books and that's how we met each other. And I loved your account with all of the Jane Austen quotes and everything. And I also have a YouTube channel where I do a little bit about books and some Disney travel, and I love meeting characters at Disney world, especially Belle.

I love asking her for book recommendations. So, that's my channel.

Izzy 1:20

Amazing. And I'd love to know how you got into Austen. Because that's why we've come together. And, I love Disney as well, but it's kind of our bridge, isn't it?

Ann 1:32

Yes. I love Austen with a passion so I really, I think I, it's a really fun story, the way that I got into Austen because, my mom's side of the family, some of them are from the UK. And so when we were visiting and she took me to Bath and she had heard about the Jane Austen centre and she wanted to take me there and for us to, you know, look at all at the muse and look at the gift shop and everything. And I had never heard of Austen before. I think I had maybe seen sentence sensibility or something when I was younger, but I had never even really heard of her before. I think she had maybe even been mentioned in an English class, but it just sort of wasn't connecting. And so I was kind of fascinated with the museum. They were having a little, uh, guests talk at the time when we were there. And so we kind of snuck into the room upstairs and listened to the guests, talk about a little bit about her life and her works. And I thought that was really interesting. And so we went into the gift shop. My mom bought me all of the Oxford additions of her novels. And when I got home from the trip, I started to read pride and prejudice and I thought this is kind of confusing. I was 17 years old. I should say that. So I thought this is kind of confusing. I don't know if I want to read this now, but one of my friends and my dance class was reading pride and prejudice for her English class. And she said, oh, it's amazing. You've got to get past the first chapter. You've got to be Mr. Darcy. He has to meet Elizabeth because it sort of, you know, starts with that macro view and then narrows and moron Elisabeth's point of view. And so I gave it a try again, push past that first chapter and got to the dance. And I was like hooked. I like had to know what happened. And I just spent, I think it was the rest of that summer and kind of into that next school year, just devouring, every single novel and falling more and more in love. And every time I would finish one, I would watch the adaptations that I could find. And I just, I became so passionate about, I studied film and literature in school, both in undergrad and grad school. And so I would always find ways to do like adaptation studies papers about Jane Austen. I always brought Jane Austen into like everything that I did. So I kind of became known as the Jane Austen girl at school. So that is all.

Izzy 3:40

We've all been there. We will be known as the Jane Austen Girls. Yeah. Okay. You feel so awkward at the time, but nowadays I'm just like, hell yeah. That's me.

Ann 3:52

Exactly. We need our own club. Jane Austen girls.

Izzy 3:56

Oh my gosh. Doesn't that sounds so good. It's like calendar girls, but for Jane Austen Love it. Exactly. That's actually so funny how many of us got into Jane Austen through our mums? That was the same for me. A lot of the other people who've been on the Podcast have them said the same.

Ann 4:18

Moms are amazing. It was so funny because the friend at dance and I, we were so obsessed with Mr. Darcy that during a dance competition, you could take out ads to like wish people, good luck and these little brochures or little booklets that they would hand out. And she actually paid for an ad and put a picture of Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy. To wish everybody could luck. It was so great.

Izzy 4:41

Oh my God. That's amazing. I love that. That's so funny. So today's episode is going to be a little bit different, but we're really excited about it. We're going to be comparing the characteristics of Jane Austen heroines to Disney princesses. So dispersing what traits they have in common. And we just thought this would be really fun. We both love Disney. We both love Austen. So we thought why not? But there was a lot of crossover when we've been doing our kind of notes prior. I think we've both found that there's a lot of similarities between the heroines and the princesses.

Ann 5:15

So I think it's going to be really great. I'm really excited. This is, this is like my two favourite things in one place. When you talk to me about this idea. I was just super excited about it.

Izzy 5:27

Honestly, when I thought of it, I was like, I've got the perfect person to do that with me. I like messaged you straight away.

Ann 5:36

How many people like Disney, princesses and Jane Austen? But I'm here for it.

Izzy 5:42

Right? Absolutely, so before we start with Elizabeth Bennett and then we'll work our way through the heroines and then just talking about which Jane Austen of which Disney princesses we think matched the Jane Austen heroine and for Elizabeth Bennet, I said Belle to start with, she loves books and she's independently minded and falls in love with somebody who is easily misunderstood. Did you have bell on your list for Elizabeth?

Ann 6:08

Yes. Belle is definitely my number one. I kind of have it kind of rank them in order of how closely I felt that they matched. And I have always thought this I've always felt since the time that I read pride and prejudice, that the two stories are just so similar because the beast is so much like Mr. Darcy, he's cranky. He's totally misunderstood. He's really has a good heart underneath. I definitely think, you know, her close relationship with her dad because, Elizabeth is really close with her father and I'm looking at some of my notes. Did you know that bell was actually inspired by Joe March? The animators and storytellers were actually inspired by Joe March. And so, um, and I think Jo March from little women and Elizabeth Bennett have a little bit in common, a lot of people think of them as kind of like they would be really good friends. So I think that's the kind of comes, comes full circle to me with that.

Izzy 7:04

That's such a good point actually. Yeah. I've never actually thought about that, but I can totally see the connection there, which like he said, but then makes sense that she's got similarities to Elizabeth Bennett as well. Another point that I thought made them similar in this storylines is that they both have kind of a rake type character who's in red, who they kind of have something going on with obviously Belle like turns down Gaston straight away. Never trust the man in red, this is what I'm taking from this.

Ann 7:32

That is so good. I never made that connection. I love that.

Izzy 7:36

They’re very similar, obviously quite full of themselves deceitful. So I thought that was like a really good tie between the two. Another note that I made was the fact that, Elizabeth doesn't want to marry for the sake of it. She'll only marry for love and Belle is the same. She's like she wants more from like, she's not going to marry cast on just for the sake of it. So I thought that was quite a good link between the two as well.

Ann 8:08

Yes, that's a really good link. I did not make that connection, but I absolutely love it. And another thing that I thought about Belle is that she really has a clever kind of wit, as far as there's a scene where guests on asks her to marry him and she says she doesn't deserve him. And then she sort of like, lets him out the door and he falls into the mud and I feel like Elizabeth Bennett would be all over that. She would totally do something like that.

Izzy 8:36

Yeah, so true.

Ann 8:43

About she has that ripe sense of humour that, that Elizabeth has. Like, I don't think a lot of people think of Belle is funny, but when you really watch it, she has that kind of like one eyebrow arch kind of a sense of fun and sense of, I don't know, cleverness that Elizabeth has.

Izzy 9:01

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the fact that, that both from these small towns, which is full of gossip, like, I mean the first scene in beauty and the beast with like the songs, Belle where they're all kind of like saying like, with her head stuck in a book and they're all like gossiping. That's very much like Merton and like that kind of vibe. And they both, I think, thrive when they leave that environment and make it can be like the truest self.

Ann 9:27

Yeah. Definitely. If you, if you think about it, um, the village and the 1995 pride and prejudice Merton village, they have some similarities. They do have a little bit of a similar look.

Izzy 9:39

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, I never thought about that was so true. Like actually in a parents, they do look quite similar. Yeah. I like that. That's really good. But these castle does not look like Pemberley thank goodness. The beasts castle to start with a super scary.

Ann 9:54

Yes it is. But in the end of this magnificent, just like, like Pemberley so

Izzy 10:00

That's true. That's true. Um, so did you have any other princesses that you linked to the Elizabeth Bennett?

Ann 10:07

I did. I feel like this one's just like a little bit of a stretch, but I thought it was worth mentioning because I do think she has some similarities with Marita just because of the fact that Meredith and her mother have kind of a tense relationship. Her mother is always wanting her to be a certain way. She's wanting her to get married. Meredith does not want to get married again. She has kind of a better relationship with her father. So I think those two things go together. I also think that, um, we can't my notes here. Oh, I also think that she has the troublemaking brothers who drive her crazy, which is very similar to kitty and Lydia who drive Elizabeth crazy. And it's completely troublemaking in a different way, but it's still like a younger siblings who are kind of annoying. And then also Elizabeth is not quite as outdoorsy or sporty or, um, I don't know what else to describe Meredith, but she's not quite so outdoors-y as Meredith, but I also think that, you know, the fact that she does like to walk, she does like to exercise. She walks to see her sister and Caroline and Mrs. Harris makes fun of the mud on her petticoat. And, you know, Merritt is kind of always a mess like that too. She's always outside. And I think both of them want to be mistress of their own fate.

Izzy 11:23

That's such a great point. Yeah. A hundred percent agree with all of that. That's definitely links there between them. I love the comment you made about the mum, the relationship between the team of this. That's such a great call. Yeah. I never thought about that. I suppose the great thing about marriage, as well as she's so bold. And I think Elizabeth has that as well. Like they're not afraid to speak their mind. And I think that runs through both those characters. So yeah, that's such a great call. Did you have any other for Elizabeth? I only have bowel for Elizabeth actually, but it's that?

Ann 11:54

Yeah, that's it for Elizabeth? I think those are the two that really fit the most to me,.

Izzy 12:00

I think in the parents as well, they look really similar, both being like that and like, appearance-wise, they're really similar as well. So, um, I think Val Elizabeth is the closest much, but I love your comments on murder. That's great. So you've the next heroine on my list is, um, Catherine Roland. So from Northanger Abbey, um, I've got a few for this. I'm going to start again with Belle. She is on my, the top of my list. The fact with the read-in the sense of curiosity and the Gothic castle, um, beating the beast is full of kind of Gothic tropes. And so as Northanger Abbey. So I thought that was quite a good link together, do you have Belle on your list for Catherine?

Ann 12:40

I put her like third on my list and I think it's just because I associate bell with Elizabeth so much. I actually think that Belle and Elizabeth with are the best match out of all of them. And so, but I didn't think about the Gothic castle. And so now I'm kind of like, oh, that's a really, that's a really clever, um, that's a really clever comparison. So now, now, now it might be going up on my list, but I think that's great.

Izzy 13:06

Yeah. I pitched her up to number two. There you go. I've also made comparisons between Catherine and Alice. Again, because of that curiosity, I need Catherine creeping around the Abbey, cause she goes through Henry's mother's room and she's like just does her own thing and she's going through all of the like boxes, finding like letters and all sorts. So she's definitely got that sense of curiosity. Why also thought it was a really good match between Catherine and Alice is that, that seems to be a blur between what's imagination and what's reality for them. Especially since Catherine thinks that general Tilney killed his wife. Um, and then have you Henry like, that makes no sense, but then that is kind of a link there. I think there's that blurred line for both of them, between imagination and reality. If you had Alice on your list or if you've got someone else?

Ann 14:03

Yeah. I actually had Alice as my number two also just because I think I probably didn't think about it until I saw it on your list but I thought it was just brilliant because I could totally picture Catherine following a white rabbit down a rabbit hole. Like she totally would, she would be really intrigued by it. She's very, very curious. And I love what you said about the imagination. I really don't have anything more to add to it because I think you described it so well. That's exactly why I would agree with this one.

Izzy 14:34

Yeah. I also think that youth as well, cause Katherine's quite a young heroine. Um, yes. And Alice is obviously quite a young, I mean, I I'd classify as a Disney princess passively. I don't know if she is actually characterised as that. I don't know, you probably know better than me.

Ann 14:48

So it's really weird with Disney. They have their official Disney princesses and Elsa and Ana aren't actually on the list, I don't think, but they have kind of their official list and then they have sort of their honorary princesses. But you know, I feel like if it's kind of a female heroine in the Disney universe, it's close enough for me. So I think it totally counts.

Izzy 15:10

Right. Absolutely. And the other one that I had on the list for Catherine is snow white and that's because of the innocence and her trust in nature. I just feel like Catherine, especially when she first meets like Isabella and John, I mean, she's always a little bit skeptical about John book, Isabella. She is quick to be her friend and, trusts her, but Isabella's obviously just got some bad intentions a lot of the time. I don't know if you kind of saw those similarities.

Ann 15:40

Yeah. I could see that I did not put her on my list, but I could definitely see it. And now that we're talking, I kind of think Henry Tony's father, he could definitely have some evil queen, correlations, because he does kind of have bad intentions, you know, thinking that she's the rich heiress and trying to sort of lure her end, just like with the apple and the evil witch.

Izzy 16:05

Oh my gosh. I love that. Yeah. I didn't even think about that myself, but definitely. Yeah. He's got evil queen vibes all over.

Ann 16:12

He does. He's like the creepiest Austen character to me, I think he's, I just, re-read all the Austen novels last summer and fall ish. And um, when I was rereading Northanger Abbey, because it'd been probably the longest inside re-read that one, I was like, he is a really sinister, like more than I remember.

Izzy 16:29

Absolutely. He's more like a Brontë character then than Austen. Like I feel like, cause I think that's the again with like where the old Gothic tropes, so that fall into Northanger Abbey, but he is definitely a creepy guy.

Ann 16:42

And I think what makes him creepier is the fact that he's not one of the Bronte type or Gothic characters. I like that Jane Austen kind of took that trope, but she always does it. She always proves that real life is almost like scarier or stranger sometimes than these fantastical things. She, you know, it's scarier to think of a real fortune hunter who is willing to just throw out his guests in the middle of the night. Someone who's completely vulnerable in the Regency ear. I mean, that's just like, I think about how shocking that is and that is for that era. Like, it seems horrible now that there was somebody else, somebody out in the middle of the night, but like in the Regency or a young girl like that, that is seriously sinister.

Izzy 17:25

It actually is honestly. I mean, if someone did that to me, I'd be absolutely terrified. Honestly, I'd be mortified if that happened to me now. So I can't even imagine like back then when women didn't have the same independence in general, so you've not been able to build the knowledge of what to do in that situation. So yeah. I always feel so bad for Catherine for that. It's just, it's awful, honestly. And before that, obviously she's basically fallen out with Henry because she thought that his dad had killed his mum. And she got the letter from Isabella, which exposes, Isabella for sleeping with Henry's brother or what have you. And then there is no longer engaged. I mean, what, what a day? I mean, that would be a rough 24 hours.

Ann 18:09

So the number one on my list for Catherine is Rapunzel because I feel like they both share that naive personality, but they are equal parts, naive and equal parts excited about going out into the world. And I liked that the, that neither one of them is, is really like a shaking leaf. You know, they kind of have their fears, but they're also really excited to experience everything. I also thought that it was very similar because they both kind of fall in with a guide to the outside world and their main guide to the outside world is this clever, funny, confident, charming guy. And while I don't think Henry and Flynn rider are exactly the same, you know, Henry is much more, um, he's not a thief. He's, he's much more upstanding. They both have that kind of clever humour. And, I think that they have a very similar dynamic in their relationship. And I also thinking about the part in Rapunzel when she first goes out into the world and she's terrified by the rustling in the Bush and it's actually a rabbit and she like jumps on Flynn rider and she's absolutely scared. And then, and she thinks it's going to be a roughen, but it's actually this tiny little bunny rabbit. And that reminded me so much of Catherine because she's like terrified that all of these bad things have happened in Northanger Abbey. And that's nothing like what she thought. And then I also thought that, you know, she seems sweet and kind of overly kind, but I think that both Catherine and Rapunzel are surprisingly stern when they need to be like John Thorpe. But Catherine becomes fed up with it. And at a certain point she's kind of like, no, like I'm not going to go with you. You know, I'm not going to go on another ride with you. I'm not going to, I'm going to learn from my mistakes. And I feel like that's exactly what Rapunzel does.

Izzy 20:02

Oh, that's such a good point. Yeah. Cause it's actually that scene when she's in the carriage with John and he's like, oh, we can't stop now. And he knew that they were going to be, she was going to meet Eleanore, isn't it? The system they were going to meet and he's like, oh no, well, we can't stop. Now we're going to have to keep going. And she's like, why would you do that? Like she does stand her ground and she's like, that's wrong. Like I made plans with people and you've just like sabotage that. And they're going to think poorly of me because of that. I really can't stand that guy.

Ann 20:35

I could go on a whole tangent of him. And what I think is the funniest thing about him. I won't go on a tangent, but I just have to say the funniest thing about him to me is the fact that, um, that kind of guy has not changed in two years. He's the exact guy who would like show off his car and want to take you for a ride in his fancy convertible. It's like exactly the same.

Izzy 20:55

That is so true. Oh my gosh. Like you can definitely find John Thorpe and everybody's life.

Ann 20:59

Like the connection with Rapunzel and Catherine, because I think the biggest thing for me is I love that Catherine does have a lot of growth. She starts out naive and she learns a lot by the end. Just the same as Rapunzel and how she learns to stand up to her mother.

Izzy 21:16

That's such a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. I think Rapunzel and Cathrine are really close match. I think why I didn't bring Rapunzel in was because tangled actually used to be my favorite Disney princess movie. It's now princess and the frog.

Ann 21:35

Yeah.

Izzy 21:37

I said new, new Disney princess films, obviously, you know, we can have a different list of classics. Of course it's too hard to page. You have to separate the two. Yeah.

Ann 21:48

I just think it's too hard to pick a Jane Austen. Heroin's also.

Izzy 21:52

Right. Exactly. We've got the issue with both of them. So, um, next on my list is Marianne Dashwood. So I'm happy for you to go first.

Ann 22:02

Okay. So my top one is Ana from frozen. I just think that they're not exactly like in the sense that Ana is very naive, but they're both very boisterous and they both don't understand their kind of colder, less emotionally available sister. And I always tell people who are Disney fans. Like I definitely am always trying to convert people to Jane Austen. And so one of the things that I will say is, I will say, you know, if you want to read sense and sensibility, it's a lot like frozen because you have these two opposite sisters and one's really like represses her emotions. And one is like really out there with her emotions. And I also think the other thing is that they both fall for a guy really quickly, who is not a good guy like Hans and will it be having a lot of similarities and um, and then they don't realize that they're in love with the sort of more average seeming kind of like every man, but really nice, good guy. Like, you know, Christophe seems kind of weird at first, just the same way that, Brandon is just not appealing to Marianne. And so there's not the age difference or anything like that. I think that like Christophe is definitely a Brandon, like just even in frozen to the way that he says my love is not fragile. Like to me that's totally something Brandon would say. I just think that they're just both really boisterous. And I just think that and the lack of understanding, like I said, with the less emotional sister, so that's my top pick.

Izzy 23:39

Oh my goodness. That is such a much, I didn't know on that, but that is, ah, wow. I'm actually impressed. I'm literally going to go around and be like Frozen on sense and sensibility. So similar.

Ann 23:54

I feel like they have the same similarities in the way that beauty and the beast and pride and prejudice do.

Izzy 24:02

Oh my gosh. So true. Yeah. I'm fully on board with that. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, even to the point you, like you said that they fall for the wrong guy to start with and they fall quickly, well what's the guy's name in Frozen that not very nice - Hans. Oh my gosh. You know, when the first time I watched it, when he turned around and was like, well, I don't love you. And basically just like leaves her to die. Yeah. Nothing's ever scarred me more.

Ann 24:20

Because I didn't completely suspect him. I honestly spent the entire movie thinking, okay. Ana is actually going to fall for Christophe, but Hahn's is going to fall for Elsa because I felt like, oh, they're going to have to make sure that both have a love interest. And I liked that. They surprised us. And the else's story was just more about like, you know, finding her, her comfort level with herself, finding, a way to be her authentic self. So that, that movie, like, I know people it's been played to death. People are sick of it. But when you first saw that movie, if you take yourself back, like to the first time you saw it in the theater, it's a really good movie.

Izzy 25:10

Yes. This shocked me like plot wise, like that one did, I thought that Ana would just turn back up back in there and she'd be like, you're not really what I'm after. Like I've grown on my adventure. And he’d just, he try and take the kingdom. It wouldn't work and he'd just disappear, but it got dark real quick. And I was, yes, I was disturbed.

Ann 25:35

Yes, definitely. He pulled a Willoughby even worse. He pulled a Wickham basically.

Izzy 25:42

I know it was honestly traumatic. Um, so do you want to see what, who else you've got on your list? Or do you want me to give one of mine

Ann 25:53

I think that we're similar. So you go ahead and do your next one.

Izzy 25:55

Okay. So my maybe top, I don't really rank mine, but the top of my list is and Pocahontas and that was because I thought that they're really in tune with, um, the world around them. So like nature, obviously for Marianne, it's more through poetry. But I thought that connection to, um, like the sensitivity to nature is there. And also, and they're both very intelligent and they appreciate that. And other people, uh, Marianne is always going on about how much she appreciates people being intelligent. And that's why she really falls for, Willoughby, obviously later we find out that he kind of models himself so that she will fall for him. Like he knows exactly what she's after. And, but it's so important to her that she's with somebody who has the same interest and she doesn't recognise Brandon's intelligence straight off the bat because he's not upfront with it, but you can definitely tell us something that's super important to her. So I thought that was a really close similarity between her and Pocahontas, like Pocahontas is. So I do know intelligently, she turns her off to join. And she's like when, when he first her eyes and she's like, you don't know anything like you think you do, but actually I'm going to show you what, what things actually are. And it's like, as he learns, as John learns, when he's on the, like obviously on the Lund with her, he realises actually, yeah, there's so much to learn and then they get close to because of that. Oh, I thought why they differ. However, it is in patience and maturity. I think Pocahontas is really patient really mature and is really not for 80% of the book. She's not patient when it comes to relationships. Like she absolutely wants everything right now when it comes to Willoughby, like when he doesn't send her a letter back, it's the end of the world when they can't necessarily go on that trip in the carriage, the end of the world. Whereas Pocahontas is much more soft and gentle, I think Maryann's often ignorant and stubborn as well. So I think that's why they differ as well.

Ann 28:00

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that one for, for exactly the same reasons. I feel like the colours of the wind song is definitely something that Maryann would sing, but maybe with a little less, I don't know, a little less authenticity. I think with Marianne, she is really in love with these ideas about herself. I think she likes thinking of herself as someone who loves nature, but I still think that despite that I think she does have like a little bit of that spiritual connection for lack of a better term to nature that I think that Pocahontas has. And I could definitely see Marianne growing into more of a Pocahontas as she's older as she's with Brandon for awhile. So I really liked that one for the exact same reasons.

Izzy 28:44

That's awesome. I'll do my second one, and then we can see if you've got some others on your list. So, the reasons that I don't think she's fully Pocahontas in terms of like the maturity and the patients is why I think she's more like Ariel from little mermaid, because Ariel's much more immature to start with. She's still head strong, but it's kind of a reckless she's right close with it. A lot of the time, Ariel's a true romantic falls, hard for people fast, like Ariel falling for Eric is like zero to a hundred real quick and like Marianne falling for Willoughby.

Ann 29:23

Luckily Ariel's a bit better at picking people than Marianne, but she's.

Izzy 29:32

She just felt lucky. She's easily manipulated and ticked. Like Marianne is with Willoughby, obviously Ariel’s tricked or manipulated by Ursula. And then just really independent headstrong. And they're being cautioned by wiser characters. So, Ariel always has like Sebastian to say like, I don't know if this is a good move and, um, Marianne has Elena saying like, you really need to be careful here. Maybe you're not presenting yourself in the best light. Then my last point is that that both musical, obviously Marianne with the piano and Ariel singing. So yeah, that was my Ariel.

Ann 30:15

I absolutely love your point about Sebastian and Ariel because even though I did choose her, I never thought about that, but Sebastian and Eleanor have a lot in common. It's so funny to think about, but they're both a little bit that sarcastic. They're both definitely like practical. They are definitely the ones trying to caution, Marianne and Ariel. I love that. I think that is the most brilliant connection. That is my mind is blown. That's great. Thanks. Now I'm going to picture, I'm going to picture Sebastian like a little Regency house, right?

Izzy 30:56

I feel like we should make that Sebastian bought it on into courage. That'd be hilarious.

Ann 31:00

I know someone really needs to do that. I don't have a whole lot to add to it because I, again, I agree for the exact same reasons that only thing I probably would add is that I think that Maryann and Ariel both think that there's something better out there. And while I think in the little mermaid, you know, it is that she does love the human world and the human world ends up being you know, where she wants to stay. Really the ocean world is pretty great too. And she just thinks that the human world is better and it ends up being better for her. And that's fine. But I think that's kind of like Maryanne where it's not necessarily a specific world, but it's a world of ideas. Like she's, she sees Willoughby embodying this world of ideas that she thinks is better than her, just every day life in the same way that Ariel catches glimpses of humans and thinks that they, the way that they live is something better, more romantic, more interesting, more exciting than her every day world in the ocean. So I think that's the only thing I have to add about that, but I agree with everything you said. I love that.

Izzy 32:11

Yeah. That's such a great idea, actually, that, connection. And I think, in that sense, both of them become like infatuated with the ideas that aren't necessarily all true. Like you said, like there's nothing wrong with the ocean world, but Ariel’s fixated on the human world and Marianne is fixated on Willoughby, when there's not a lot of depth to him in reality. So that's actually so interesting. Yeah. I just thought that's such a great point.

Ann 32:41

I think even beyond, will it be too, she has this romanticised world of music and art and where she won't eat, she'll be rude to people. Like she will be rude to the Jennings and, you know, Mrs. Jennings is absolutely insane, but if you really look at her, she really has good intentions. And she really is like a very kind person she's kind of off the wall and inappropriate, but she definitely is a kind person. And I think that, you know, Marianne just can't appreciate anything that does not encompass her romanticised version of the artistic intelligent world and the same way the Ariel can't really appreciate the merpeople in her life as well, because they don't have the, the human characteristics she values.

Izzy 33:26

No, I totally agree. That's so true. And I think on that point, that Marianne, she is so quick to judge Brandon because, when she realises that he's kind of had past lovers or what have you, she says like, that's it then, you know, if you've had things in the past, it's kind of over for you and she's just got these bizarre, strong beliefs that she just like completely takes over her and the star of the novel. Like she's literally just roaming that into anyone and everyone who seems to question them. So, yeah, I absolutely agree. I think area's a little nicer than Maryanne though, especially at the stall. I'd say that's the only kind of difference there Ariel's, really kind and sweet, whereas Marianne comes across a bit, me and just stubborn.

Ann 34:17

Have you seen that? This just makes me think of this. Have you seen those memes? I think they were from a few years ago. It was hipster Ariel, because I always think of Marianne would have been like the hipster. And I think that that's kind of a funny connection to.

Izzy 34:33

Oh, that's interesting. I've not actually seen this.

Ann 34:36

Those were a thing, especially in the Disney community. I want to say it was probably like four years ago, but, um, they would have these memes with Ariel was like the hipster glasses and I think it was just because she's kind of like angsty and everything. And so I just, um, I dunno, I just, that also connection to me, it was funny.

Izzy 34:54

Yeah. That is really funny. I feel like, oh wait, no, I have done that the list, right. I was going to say, oh my gosh, have I done Marianne? And then not doing Eleanor like after, but I have, I have so Eleanore’s next on my list. I've not got many notes on this. I've put people that I connect with us. So it'd be good to just talk this through because I didn't write too many notes of why I think they are similar. I must have just be like off the top of my head where I thought like my first initial thoughts were, so for Eleanor, I've got, sleeping beauty and I've just put patient in good tempered. And then, Tina, the fact that she's hard working and also frugal the fact that she, like when they moved to the cottage, she's the one who's always that like, we need to be on a budget. Like we don't have money to start. We need to make sure that we're like she says to Maryann, you can't have that horse off of Willoughby, cause how enough are we going to afford it? And she she's good at running a house. And I think Tina really embodies that idea of, you know, working hard and managing money. And I love Tina. She's one of my favourite Disney princesses. So yeah, I do have many notes and Elena, so it'd be good to just like chat that through when I, when I knew what your, your thoughts are.

Ann 36:05

Yeah, definitely. So I, my number one, which is no surprise after what we talked about earlier is Elsa, but Tiana is my number two for the same reasons. I think that she's really practical, no nonsense and she, I guess, Eleanor doesn't really learn to loosen up. And so that's kind of where they're a little bit different because part of Jonah's journey is that she has to learn to loosen up. But, um, I think that's a great one. And again, with Elsa, I just feel like they're both kind of hiding a secret. So after Eleanor learns about Edward was Lucy Steele and she feels like she has to conceal don't feel, I feel like that just that fits with Elsa’s ice powers. And they're, they're both kind of secretly upset while their sisters are like, do you want to build a snowman? Like Marianne's like, why are you, can you picture Marianne knocking on a door and singing? Do you want to be a snowman that just made me laugh? But like in the, in the macro view, it's a very similar sentiment despite being, completely different on on-screen and page.

Izzy37:08

No, that's so true. I see what I can see. I can see Eleanore like going off and building an ice castle for herself.

Ann 37:17

Well, and Marianne even says, I think she even calls her cold. Doesn't she? I know she says like unfeeling, Eleanor or something. She was like, I think she calls her cold. Maybe I'm confusing. Maybe she just calls her cold and a movie version, but I'm pretty sure she's whole culture Colton, the novel, maybe wrong.

Izzy 37:34

But I love you comment the fact that, uh, about the concealing and not like letting out, showing those true feelings, I think that's so true. Eleanor bottles, everything up for the majority of the novel. I feel so bad for Eleanor. It's like, I used to really like Marianne and I think that's because I could relate to a more when I was younger, but as I've said, I feel so bad for Eleanor. I can't even imagine. I'm sorry. At Lucy steel is one of the worst characters because I didn't believe for one minutes that she doesn't realise something's going on with Eleanor and, Edward. So I just feel like her constant, like comments about being like, oh, me and Edward have been engaged, blah, blah, blah. This is what we're going to do. Honestly. I think that's awful. I think, oh, it just makes me feel so gross, especially if she doesn't fuck. No, which I think she does the L this something like between Eleanor and Edward, it's just cruel.

Ann 38:27

Yeah, it really is. I'm the exact the same way I used to, as you know, when I first read it at like 17, Marianne's really relatable because I think maybe not all, but most 17 year old girls kind of like relate with that, that swoony guy who comes and rescues you. And it just seems so. And you're just like, oh gosh, she ends up with Brandon. And of course, as you know, I'm very team branded now, but, especially when I re-read sense and sensibility last year, I really felt for Eleanor. And not only that, but I noticed she has a really subtle sense of humour. And in the comparison with frozen, I think that Elsa sometimes has like a cute, subtle sense of humour. But one of my, I just have to say one of my favourite quotes. Let's sorry. I was trying to pull up here, but one of my favourite quotes that Eleanor says is, well, she doesn't say it. I'm sorry. It's one of my favourite quotes from sense and sensibility. It's in the narration. And I think she's talking to John Dashwood or she's talking to Fanny's brother and it says that he doesn't deserve the compliment of rational opposition. And it just that's like my favourite thing about Eleanor, because it's really sassy. I mean, she doesn't say it, but it's like Jane Austen is narrating that that's how Eleanor fell. And that just that's like one of my favourite quotes.

Izzy 39:47

Yeah. I feel like you can really respect Tylenol because the people that she wants to spend time with and she appreciates all usually good people. Like, I feel like she's such a good judge of character. I think it was a second episode. My second episode, I did like, give you credit for it because you were the one that kind of brought my attention to like Brandon and everything.

Ann 40:09

It was such a great episode.

Izzy 40:12

And I always like bigging up friends and of being Kayleigh with like the whole episode, the fact that, Elena and Brendon have such a close friendship. I really liked that. And I think, maybe that's where they kind of differ Elsa unless we kind of look at, Olaf as being like Elsa’s friends, but.

Ann 40:32

I think in frozen too, um, definitely, I mean, it's definitely not as close, but I do think in frozen too. I don't know if you've seen that one, but I do think that Elsa and Christophe do have a really good like affable friendship and like in the little frozen shorts, that they've made. I definitely feel like he fits in really well. It's not the same as Brandon at all, but I definitely think he can make a little bit of the comparison with Christophe and Elsa in the sequels.

Izzy 40:58

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think your point about Brandon is so true that they are really similar characters. And I think what they bring to the significant tool for when that comes about is like that sense of calm. And I think they that see Brandon from Arianna is that sense of calm brings her back down to reality and the same for crystal then Ana, because she's a little bit like crazy all the time, whereas he's a little bit more soft and calm and just like a little bit floaty, but yeah, he's a good character.

Ann 41:34

And if you think about it too, Elsa does not like Hans at all. She does not want Ana to get married right away. She's like you can't marry someone you just met, which is exactly the same response as Eleanor had. And so I think that they have that similarity too. And this is just sort of a side note, but since you brought up your podcast, one of the things that kind of blew my mind when I was listening to your podcast is when you guys were talking about when you guys were talking about Marianne and Willoughby, and how will it be modelled himself to be what Marianne wanted? And I see that, I think I never really consciously thought about that because I thought, oh, they just have a lot in common, but I think you're really right on that. And then I think that goes back in again with this frozen sense and sensibility, same because that's exactly what Hans does. He just tries to be exactly what Ana wants.

Izzy 42:25

That's actually so true. It's like in the song that they sing live as an open door, like he's a little bit where he's like, we finished each of us and then he's like sandwiches. He's like that’s what i was going to say, and, we know Hans, that was not what you were gonna say.

Ann 42:39

Exactly.

Izzy 42:42

I can definitely see the similarities between sense sensibility. And first you, you will meet over there. I'm going to be telling people that.

Ann 42:51

Yeah. I always tell Disney fans. I'm like, if you like feeding the beast, read pride and prejudice. If you like frozen reads since, since sensibility.

Izzy 42:59

So true. I feel like we're bringing it all together in this podcast. Now we'll actually put out the guide to Disney and Austen.

Ann 43:06

Exactly.

Izzy 43:09

So next on my list, unless we, have you got any more on your Eleanor list? Nope. Okay. So I'll move on to the next one on my list. We've got Emma Woodhouse from Emma, obviously. Okay. So top on my list for Emma is Jasmine, um, protect your father, and somebody who's born into privilege. She's a very desirable match for a man. Like, Jasmine has people see to this, coming to see her all the time. Everybody knows that animal will be a great match for anyone. But she's happily independent. And so Jasmine's half, like she actually wants to run the kingdom herself and Emma is happy to be mistress of Hatfield.

Ann 43:54

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that one. I, that was my top pick too. I just think that, for all the reasons that you said, and I think that, in a way, you know, people often think of Emma's like the spoiled princess, which you could say. I mean, it's not that Jasmine is spoiled. She has a difficult life and even Emma has her struggles too, but I think that people could label them both that the same thing with the father. I'm just trying to think if I even have anything else to add, because you did such a good job with it. I can't even think of anything. I just, yeah. I just think she's kind of, she's definitely my number one because she just fits perfectly. Oh, I know what I was going to say. I definitely think you could describe Jasmine as handsome, clever and rich. Like, you know, she's pretty, she's, she's very clever and very rich and that's why a lot of guys are after her. And she's kind of just sees it for, I think she she's, she has a little bit of the Elizabeth Bennett thing. I think in a sense of the way she sees these matches, but because I don't think Emma, because she does have the money and she does have the privilege a little bit different than Jasmine, where she's not being forced to marriage. I don't think, sorry, not being forced to get married. I don't think she sees it any the exact same way, but I do think that they both, um, they both want that independence and both want to kind of rule over their little worlds on their,.

Izzy 45:21

Right. I feel like another good point. Matching kind of the two storylines is, Elton in his proposal and like Jafar, like that, that sense of like, there's this male character who thinks that like entitled to you.

Ann 45:39

Yes. I didn't even think about that. That's a really good one.

Izzy 45:43

Thanks. I literally just come up, came up with that right there. I was just thinking about this. And I was like, I feel like there's going to be somebody who's similar to Altus usually goes to stories. Isn't it? There's going to be this kind of like undesirable nod. He was creeping on ya. I mean, Elizabeth has Collins. Emma has Mr. Elton, honestly the missed Alison proposal free smell, like no one's business, but he is, he's got that same arrogance that just like, I am entitled to whatever I want.

Ann 46:10

Yeah, exactly. No, that is such a good comparison. I never thought about that in Jafar is somebody, I mean, I watched Aladdin or the first time when I was a kid. So I can't really remember my, you know, any kind of analytical reaction to that. But I do do do think that I didn't see it coming. You know, I don't think that it's, I don't think it's super, super obvious, at the very, very first you started to understand that he, um, that he does want her for the title and the position, but I do think he kind of sneak attacks you a little bit in the same way as Elton, because I didn't, I didn't see it coming with Mr. Elton at all.

Izzy 46:47

Right. Absolutely. And I feel like the heroines themselves don't see it coming out, but that leaves you just like, wow, this is like, so out that, why would you even think, like, why isn't it come to your mind? Think that was Emma. She's like, she's just like, this makes no sense to me. I thought you will interested in my friend. Like, I'm not sure knew any tensions, like in the sense that I, once Marie, I also made this point, I think it was in episode three. Why would ever, like, why would Mr. Elton thinks that ever would go for him anyway? Like if we're just thinking about the time period, why would that make any sense, an heiress why would she go in Marie? The clergy of the village? I I'm sorry, but that light boggles my mind, like considering the, not a little, maybe with cells and soul, they were in love, but I would like to see just like I get why you thought that was a match.

Ann 47:37

I think he's arrogant enough to think that, that she's in love with him. I think because of her trying to set him up with Harriet, I do think she does come across. Like if you really, really take yourself away from what we know about the story, and you look at it from, from his eyes, um, the little riddles that they do that she's putting together and just like, and she's like goes to visit. And it seems like she's trying to make excuses to stay longer. It really, I think he's smarter than she gives him credit for. He knows something's going on, but he's not smart enough to realise that she's trying to set him up with Harriet. I think he just was like, oh, something's going on? She must be in love with me.

Izzy 48:18

Right, right. Yeah. That's such a good point. And then he just goes for it, like, yeah, I suppose they do. I don't mean to offend her at Smith and this, but I suppose both Jasmine and Emma have loyal friends as well. Like Emma has Harriet and then obviously Jasmine has I can’t think of what her Tigers called.

Ann 48:36

Oh my gosh, the Gira, I think it's it. No, am I am thinking of, I was thinking of the jungle book. Oh, that's all rah Raja, Raj. Oh my gosh. I need to rewatch Aladdin. My Disney street credit is ruined. I'm not a Disney authority anymore.

Izzy 48:56

Oh my goodness. It's okay. I wouldn't tell anyone. So I've got a couple of the people on my list, but I know I've only got one other person on my list for Emma. Do you have any people on your list for Emma that isn't Jasmine?

Ann 49:06

I have some non Disney princesses, and then I think my second on my list might match up with you. So if you want to go ahead and tell your second.

Izzy 49:14

And your list. Okay. So my number two is Ariel. I find it. Oh, great. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you. So again, are you a protective father? That longing for adventure. Emma really wants to, travel and see the well, because she's obviously being deprived of that, staying at home with her dad. And she's quite jealous of people like Jane Fairfax and Frank Church. They've been able to go to Weymouth. So that longing for adventure, it makes them similar. Before Ariel meets Eric. She's not that interested in like romantic relationships. It's just meeting Eric. That makes that real for her because I feel like she has had seizures in the past. And I think that's the same as Emma. It's like, they're all probably people she could marry, but it's not top of her mind. It's more like she's more interested in her life independently. What is it that I want to explore? What's my adventure. Yeah, that was, that was my list.

Ann 50:14

I really don't have much to add to that. That's exactly all the same reasons. Definitely the whole, father relationship. The fact that, you know, they're both in positions of privilege. Again, you know, they, so many of the Disney don't start out as princesses. And so Jasmine and Ariel started out as princesses in the same way that Emma, um, is handsome and clever and rich and kind of the princess of her village. But, I had three kind of honorary mentions that are not Disney princesses, but Disney heroines. That just really reminded me of Emma that I just wanted to mention. So the first one is Mary Poppins because she's practically perfect in every way. And she's very highly of, she thinks very highly of herself. Um, the only difference is that Mary Poppins is when she metals and people's lives is actually, uh, she's pretty good at it. She makes things better for the bank's children and Emma is a disaster, but they do both like the metal and people's lives. It's just that Mary Poppins actually is good at it.

Izzy 51:11

Love that. That's amazing.

Ann 51:14

And then I had Jane Porter from Tarzan because, and I even actually watched a couple of clips just to think, because I thought gene reminds me of someone and I was, I was trying to think, I do think she's a little enamoured quickly with Tarzan in a way that you could say like more romantic or more like a Marianne, but, Jane Porter thinks kind of highly of herself, not in a really too annoying way, but there's a scene where she is, chatting with like a little monkey who takes some of her her, no, it doesn't take some of her food takes one of her drawings. And, she's kind of having like this little battle with this monkey and she outsmarts the monkey and she's like, ha ha. I got the drawing back from you, and she kind of like, is very smug about it. And then this whole like hoard of gorillas or monkeys or whatever, come after her. And she was like, well, not expecting that. And she's being chased through the forest. And that just feels like Emma, like, ah, I'm so clever. I got the better of the little monkey and it's like, no, you didn't really see what it was like on the other side of that. You didn't see the whole picture.

Izzy 52:12

I love that as well. That's actually amazing. That's so true. I feel like Evan makes, does these little things and doesn't realise that repercussions, like it's so about like all the flirting with Frank, obviously she actually doesn't know that he's engaged to Jane, but when it all comes out, it's just so embarrassing for her. And it's just like an avalanche of just embarrassment. It's just awful.

Ann 52:34

Exactly. And I just saw that connection because while it's like more of a concrete sort of thing is of her consequences, um, Jane sort of tends to think highly of herself a little bit and think she has everything figured out and the consequences don't always work out for her. And then she also, in a way, I know this is kind of weird because it's her love interest, but the way that Jane Porter kind of moulds Tarzan or tries to make him into the gentleman, that she thinks that he should be like not the jungle man is very similar to Harriet, like how she's trying to bring Harriet up into her level. And she's trying to bring, and Jane is trying to bring Tarzan up to her level and really they don't neither one needs to be that change that much. It's just that it's just their MIS misconceptions or their own arrogance, I guess I love that.

Izzy 53:25

Also bring into that, the idea of trying to mould people into exactly what you want is Emma. I don't know if this is actually in the books. I can't remember, but I do know in the 2009 adaptation, there's a scene where Mr. Knightley turns up to, the Cole's party on horseback. And she's like, why are you showing up on horseback? Like a gentleman would turn up an, a coach, like a courage, like you can't, I'm ashamed talking with you and that's actually like a similar again, is that like moments? Me Knightly, you need to act like a gentleman.

Ann 53:58

I never thought of that. Yeah. That's like, that's really good. And then my last one, which is just, uh, I don't think they have a ton in common, but I just had to do a little honourable mention for Tinkerbell because they're both very prone to being jealous. And I love the fact that Emma doesn't really wants Frank Churchill, but because she was duped and rejected, she's really like jealous and mad about it. And then she gets of course, super jealous and uh, with Mr. Knightley. And that's why she realises that she's in love with him. So they both kind of have that jealous streak and them.

Izzy 54:29

Yeah, that's absolute, that's such a great link again. Yeah. I love those honorary mentions.

Ann 54:34

And I have to add one more Tinkerbells, reaction to Wendy is exactly the same as Emma's reaction to Jane Fairfax.

Izzy 54:43

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that is so true. It's that like fair. It's like what, what you bring, you are an outside of what you bring in into my world because like Netherland is Tinkerbells world and it's the same as when Jane turns up and hi, Bree obviously jeans from hybrid, but she's not being there for so long that that is just Emma's kingdom at that point. Yes. And she is a threat because she's a young woman he's like obviously eligible to be married or what have you. And she's. Yeah.

Ann 55:13

And she's more talented than Emma. She, she really is because Emma is, she's content to rest on her laurels. And you know, there's always the thing about that. She's always making lists to read books, but she doesn't actually read them and, you know, she can play and sing, but Jane just, Jane just has more talent than she does it. I think that she can't handle that because she's queen of the small little hill in Highbury.

Izzy 55:35

Right. And she's had to spend her entire life hearing about how talented Jane Fairfax is. So I think when she appears, she's like, oh gosh, this is my competitor.

Ann 55:45

Yeah.

Izzy 55:47

Okay. So is that everyone for Emma? Okay. So we've got two left and next on my list is Fanny price for Mansfield Park. So I'm happy for you to start with this one.

Ann 56:02

For me, I've always seen Mansfield park as the Cinderella story, even though Edmund is I can go on a whole thing about how much I don't like Edmund, but you know, Fanny wants him. So you just have to kind of go, okay, good for you. You got what you wanted. But I do think that it is a Cinderella story. I mean, she's treated the maid, sort of between a mate and a family member and, um, and she is related to them, which, Cinderella is not actually related to her step sisters or step mother, but it's still like a family environment. And within her own family environment, she's treated as less than everyone else. The prince and Edmond, I don't think go along very well, but you could say that, I guess they don't have personalities though. Neither one of them have really great personalities. So I guess you could say, um, but I just think even Edmond is less charming than the friends, because I just feel like, I feel like Edmond does not deserve Fanny. I feel like he does not appreciate her. I think he's the girl that he goes, okay. Yeah. Mary Crawford is, is bad for me. She's disappointing. I've been burned. I don't even feel like it's sort of the Mary's laugh. Like, yeah. I don't feel like it's like Marianne grows to love Brandon and appreciate Brandon. I feel like he thinks Sandy will make a good wife, like Fannie will make a good clergyman, his wife, and he really cares about her and he thinks she's the person that he ought to stay with. But again, that's kind of another tangent, but, but, you know, I guess you could say in the sense that, Cinderella's prince, you know, he's, they danced together and there's not that much, much chemistry or anything to it. So I think that's similar, you could say that Mary Crawford, and Henry just in the way that they try to like foil Fanny of have similarities to like the stepmother and the stepsisters. Definitely Mrs. Norris and the stepmother. Exactly the same, there, and I don't, I can't really think of a comparison for the mice, but that's, but I do think of it as a Cinderella story and even the dance, even the dance was William, you know, like they do have a dance where Fannie gets to participate. And, um, so yeah, anyway, I think, and I've always wondered, and I would be curious to see what you think of this. Do you think that since Cinderella, I assume was a well-known fairy tale and the Regency period, do you think that there was any sort of, inspiration there for Jane Austen? Or do you think it's just completely not related?

Izzy 58:31

I've always felt the same about like Cinderella and Mansfield Park being so similar. So I have wounded that, I don't know how like widely read fairytales were at the time because, um, they didn't originate in England. That was willing, it was Germany. Wasn't it? A lot of fairytales spread around too, I think. So I don't know how widely read that would have been and yeah. Yeah. I think it was a lot. I was like, oh, the European country. So I don't know how widely read it would have been in England at the time, but I couldn't know for sure. Definitely be interested to know more about that. I agree with everything you said like about Mrs. Norris, um, and the sisters that's so similar. It's bizarre. It's actually funny. Um, just side note for people to, he's listened to your record, my episodes quite far in advance, but there is an episode coming out, um, which will be out by the time this one comes out, it's going to be the September episode and it's on funny price. So a lot of the things that are in knowing you and I'm good at, I do talk about those in the episodes. You're going to love it. I just can't wait.

Ann 59:30

Yeah. I can't wait to listen to, I actually really liked Fannie price. Um, I think she's an underrated heroin, but they're just, there are certain things with like Edmund, but you may already know this, but I've always thought it was really fascinating that, um, supposedly, um, Jane Austen, have you heard this, that Jane Austen was, um, maybe a little bit inspired by Dido Belle. That's like Lord Mansfield. Have you seen the movie Belle?

Izzy 59:55

I know, I know. I, I've not seen the movie, but I think I visited the place where they lived or something. So I do know about the story. I do know.

Ann 1:00:03

Yeah. Lord Mansfield, kind of took her into his home. I think he was somehow related. He was, she was his ward and I can't remember these exacts. I do love the movie. It's just been a while since I watched it to remember the specifics, but I heard it because his name was man Lord Mansfield, that, that had something to do with Mansfield park and, um, the, uh, the slave trade and things like that, that there was some sort of loose connection, but Jane Austen was trying to make, but I think she was also, even though Fannie is quite, I think that she was also trying to make that connection of what must it be like to be sort of part of your family or household, but also a complete outsider at the same time.

Izzy 1:00:49

No, absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent. Like she is pretty much a seven. I do like to say that in the September episode, I think if have called it like heroin or house elf, because she likes, she reminds me of a house at times.

Ann 1:01:04

No, she really does.

Izzy 1:01:05

Doesn't. I think the story is also similar and I loved what you said about the bowl as well, because I put here know about, um, it's not until the bowl that she's actually that funny actually I'm seen differently and admired by men. I mean, we could talk into the thought that obviously this is some sort of male gay situation going on there, but I feel like that's the same with Cinderella. She isn't noticed until she goes to the ball and then people like, oh, wow. I mean, it's slightly different in the newer adaptation, I think because they meet prior, don't they? The one with Lily, James, and I think they do meet before the bowl, but I'm talking about like, obviously the, the original adaptation it's when she goes to the ball, that's when she's recognised by everyone, everyone thinks, wow. Like, and that's the thing with Fanny, the only other person I've got on there is no why. And that's just because of the innocence and our activity, a funny also there's something very, delicate about snow, like fragile. And I think funny is the same, like funny he's like continually ill. I think it, because they leave her in the attic with no fire, but like, she's just like heal the time and she can't walk very far and I'm older, so there's a little bit more active. I feel like they both have that sense of like fragility between them.

Ann 1:02:18

Yeah. Now, and now that you're just saying this, so I didn't actually put her on my list, but now that you're saying this, I was thinking about the way that she takes care of the doors is very similar to the way that she takes care of the family at Mansfield. She's just kind of like, everybody's like everybody leans on her to make things like more homey or more comfortable. And that's kind of what the doors do with Snow White.

Izzy 1:02:47

She's so nurturing. They both thought that you could link here. I didn't think about that, but that's such a great point. So yeah, I do have anyone else with funny, do you have other princesses that you've matched with Fanny?

Ann 1:02:54

I have a complete wildcard that I feel like on the surface, everyone's going to say this doesn't make sense at all, but I'm going to make it make sense currently. So I'm going to make it make sense for me, but my wild card for Fannie is Mulan. And the reason I put them together is because I think that they both have a very quiet strength that no one sees. And, um, they have this underneath side. I think that Fanny is so strong, especially in her position to turn down Henry Crawford. And she is so adamant about what she believes to be best for her in the same way that Milan does not fit into society, which many Jane Austen heroins wants. It's the exact same thing. They don't want to get married for, you know, um, with, if it's not for love and they want this some sort of independence, which is the exact same thing was most Disney heroines. And, you know, especially with Mulan, but it's like this world that she's supposed to fit into, especially at the first, you know, and they're, and they're dressing her up and, you know, doing all the elaborate makeup and everything, and it's like is not comfortable in that. Like, I really think in modern and modern times, um, Fanny would be like, I don't, I don't know if I like the word tomboy, but I guess somebody who's like more chill about things. I don't know that she would really want to dress up in the same way that Mulan doesn't. I think that Mulan feels like this sense of honour that she has to bring to her family in the same way that Fannie feels like she has to bring a sense of honour to her family, because she's sort of like less than, and I think Mulan feels that she's less than because she's a woman and I think they just kind of have this secret inner world that, especially in the novel, you really get to see Fannie's thoughts in this inner world and you have this with Mulan, and then I also, you could even, um, even though Shang is way better than Edmund, I think you could even say the fact that, of course Shane thinks that she's a boy like the entire time and, he's attracted to women. So it's like, he's not even thinking of Mulan as a romantic interest. And so, um, it's sort of the same kind of thing. You know, admin sort of thinks of her is like family. And so it's the same kind of like, oh, this isn't really, you know, she's like my sister, just the way that, you know, Shane thinks of Milan is like his, you know, teammate in the army, in the army or whatever it is. And so, um, I think they have to sort of late to the game realisation the same late to the game realisation. And I'm trying to think if there's anything else for that I thought of with Milan, but I just think that they both have this really surprising strengths because no one would think that Mulan would be someone who could save all of China and be a warrior. Just the way that I think no one expects Fannie to, you know, put her foot down when it comes to the play when it comes to marrying Henry Crawford, because that was so gutsy to turn down Henry Crawford. And even, I remember, I think most Austen's fan fans feel this way when you're reading it. You're like, but maybe you could be reformed. Like maybe he's charming. Maybe you shouldn't turn him down, but she stuck to her convictions so much in the same way that Mulan, everyone told her, you know, that she couldn't be a warrior. She had to be this proper woman and she stuck to her convictions. And um, so I don't know. So I, like I said, it's weird. Maybe no one else sees it, but that's how it makes sense to me.

Izzy 1:06:07

Honestly. You've just sold that too. I, yeah. I'm, I'm seeing those connections loud and clear right now. I think it's so right. They've both got such strong moral conferences. They, they know what they want. Like Fanny does not waiver. She wants Edmond. She's not going to marry for anything less. And like you said, I mean that scene is so awkward when she's having to say like, I'm not going to marry him. When they're in that room together, it is so all quotes I need, he is literally because obviously he doesn't know that she likes Edmond. He's like, they're like, why would you be turning this person down? I don't know if you will fight going crazy or something, but this is such a good opportunity for you. And you just sat there thinking, oh, this is so awkward, she can't turn around and be like, oh, it's cause I'll be certain. So she's just like, um, I just don't want to, and it just does not come over. Well, it's so bad I guess, but awful or she's just crying and oh, but you'll right. She just like, she stands her ground. She was like, no, I'm not going to do this. And again, like you said, with the play, she stands her ground. There's so many instances where she just jumped up and she's like, this is my, these are my morals and I'm not going to waiver from them.

Ann 1:07:19

Fanny is probably the most oppressed of all of the Austen heroines as far as not really having much, much room to move in her society, which I think with Mulan in the traditional Chinese society of her time period, she is probably the most oppressed of the Disney princesses. I mean, not it's in a different way. It's not like Cinderella. She's very oppressed by specific people, but move on is the most constrained by society. And I think they have that in common too. Yeah.

Izzy 1:07:50

Plain, thus everyone. I've got a Fanny, is that everyone on your funny list? Yes. Amazing. So last on the list is on Elliot from persuasion. Do you want to go first?

Ann 1:08:08

I'm sure I will. It's funny because I have two, two of the same. So I have also always seen persuasion as a bit of a Cinderella story because I, see her sister is definitely the stepsisters the way she treats and um, the way her father, her father is not so much of the stepmother, but he's like anaesthesia, Rosella, like he's so vain and he's just, he's silly and ridiculous and he's obsessed with status. So he's not even like so evil as much as he's just kind of clueless in the same way that the sub stepsisters are. He's a narcissist, that's the best word for it. And you know, even though it's about second chances, I still feel as if it has that Cinderella vibe because, and is a little bit treated like a servant, not exactly the same way as Fannie at all, but she's definitely the lowest down on the totem pole. She's always supposed to. She's just always supposed to accept everything in the same way that Cinderella is. And I love hers is so much more satisfying than Fanny story because captain Wentworth is wonderful and he is kind of like that prince, even though it's a second chance at love, it is a Cinderella story because it's magical and it's like, she's going from obscurity, not within society so much, but like a security as far as nobody appreciates her to having that Cinderella moment of being seen and appreciated and um, you know, taken away often to the romantic sunset away from the horrible family.

Izzy 1:09:35

Yeah. I absolutely agree. I put Cinderella as well and I just said, you know, the cruel family dynamics is so similar. I think I agree. Like one of the sisters. I mean, he's not even like a father figure. It's surface all like in a lot of the Austen levels, we have such this such a bond between the heroine and the father and then with this one is literally like, you wouldn't even know it's her father is, is pretty unbelievable. To be honest with you. I think even so Thomas Bertram is a closer farther figure to Fanny, there is like no relationship. It is so weird. But I agree. Yeah, there is that kind of, um, I'm kind of starting out at the bottom of the pile and then slowly she kind of works her way back up there and then eventually she gets a happy ending. So agreed. Cinderella is also on my list.

Ann 1:10:30

Her sister and Sir Elliot are almost kind of jealous of her when she does get some attention. And I do think that they have, I do think that the dad has narcissistic personality disorder. Like it's, it wasn't even probably a thing back then, but just the it's just so, so classic. And I think the reason trying to think of her name, what is it her sister's name is Elizabeth.

Izzy 1:10:54

Elizabeth. Yeah.

Ann 1:10:57

But I think the only reason he likes her more is because she just sort of mirrors back that narcissism to him. So yeah, there, that is such an interesting dynamic. He really is something else.

Izzy 1:11:10

Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, I think on Elliot list is actually the longest of how many I fused my hardest to place with the Disney princess. So I had to have quite a few, capacity of those where there's, there's usually someone that stands out to me and I'm like, oh, that's how much, if a Disney princess, it was difficult. So I do have Cinderella on my list. I also have Jasmine and the reason I put Jasmine on there is that she doesn't care for wealth and like materialism. She wants to marry for love, um, and would choose to marry somebody unexpected who isn't, what her family would originally choose.

Ann 1:11:50

That is really a good, that is really a good point. And if you think about a Latin, it's sort of a second chance too, because she thinks he's dead or she thinks he's a street rat and um, then he's, prince Ali Ababa, then she realises, I mean, there's all the like weird identity stuff, but it's still kind of a second chance because she does think that he's dead at first and like nothing's going to happen. And she's then they have sort of that weird tension because she doesn't like him as the prince. And, uh, even though Anne still likes captain Wentworth, she still feels as if, you know, things are kind of over. And so they do kind of both get that second chance with romance too. I like that.

Izzy 1:12:27

Right. Wentworth does come back a bit of a douchebag temporary. I really, honestly I really hate on him. It just makes my skin crawl. Honestly, I feel.

Ann 1:12:41

In a way he is almost like the Jasmine because it's just like, he's the one who's kind of like she's changed and she's, you know, betrayed me and lied to me and that kind of thing. He's the jasmine situation.

Izzy 1:12:52

Yeah. He really gets while I'm real tired about the whole situation. Who else have I got him in a site? Also, he put snow white and I put it that she's not afraid to get her hands dirty. She's often the one caring for family members. And she also packs up the house, that kind of thing. So a bit like, um, snow in the doors then also like the fact when she turns up at the cost of she's like cleans the whole place straight away. Um, so yeah, I've made the kind of link between those tuition know if you had snow on your list.

Ann 1:13:20

Yes. I did have snow white on my list for the exact same reasons and it just, I thought of, you know, the drawers are kind of needy in the same way that Mary is and, you know, taking, she's always just the person who takes care of people and she's the person who she is the nurture. Definitely. So I think that's a great choice,.

Izzy 1:13:38

A hundred percent. And then the only other one that I did have on my list say the only evil one, obviously this is my longest list, sleeping beauty, but I didn't play any comments next to it. So I don't know why I must've just been like, yeah, I can see the connections there. I'm guessing it's probably about, temperament and that sleeping beauty is really patient. And obviously she has to be patient because she's like basically in a coma, but.

Ann 1:14:04

She has to wait a long time.

Izzy 1:14:06

Right. She has to wait for like that person to come back around and show their feelings are still true. Because obviously, prince Phillip and, Aurora meet prior and they kind of full for each other, but then it's like, he needs to show that again later on. So it is kind of like went with an on like they did fall in love, but it's like he needs to re address that later for it to work out. It takes when we're writing the letter for 'em to be like, right, there's still something here. And it takes Phillip having to kiss, um, Aurora that she can actually wake up and live a life so.

Ann 1:14:44

Well. And I think too, there's a similarity in the sense that she's goes back and tells the fairy God or not the very God, but the fairies, the three fairies that you know, that she's met, fallen in love or whatever they find out that she's fallen in love. And they're kind of like, no. You’re a princess you have to Marry a prince. And that’s exactly the same thing, they obviously don’t realise that it’s the same person but she’s being persuaded away. She cry’s about it and is a lot more pouty than I imagine Anne was but but it’s very similar. She was number two on my list. Because I think they’re both at the mercy of other peoples ideas for their lives. And they have calm personalities that are easily persuaded even though I think Aurora goes into her room and cries a little bit. She doesn’t speak, she doesn’t talk there’s that scene where she just goes with them. She’s just resigned to the fact that she’s going to have to marry a prince. An I think in a way, I don’t know if Anne ever truly considers Mr Elliot, I think she kind of does but it’s a similar dynamic. Even though prince Phillip is the same person, it’s that need to marry someone of your status. And I think they they’re lives are ruled by other people and people don’t approve of the match she wants to have.

Izzy 1:16:22

That’s such a good point, and it’s a fast version of persuasion, if we had seen Anne and Wentworth prior, when they were originally engaged.

Ann 1:16:33

Which I would love to see by the way, I would love for someone to make like a prequel or a miniseries where we get to see their whole relationship and then speed forward to when the novel takes place.

Izzy 1:16:47

Yes, I love like flashbacks in a new adaptation where it’s like you see moment of them together when they were younger. I literally make this comment, I Can’t remember which episode, I think I might be the first episode, but you don’t see them falling in love. Which is so unusual for an Austen novel, because were usually on that journey with them but Anne and Wentworth have already fallen in love once, so you’re coming in half way though the story. I just find it so interesting what they’re relationship was like. Because you only get snippets and you only get it from Anne’s perspective and it’s mainly feeling not knowledge. It’s not that you know particular moments you just get the feeling she had back then. You know there’s connections there but what did they talk about. When he’s like you used to like music, we know that they used to talk about their interests, but it’s like what did they talk about? What did they have in common? What made them fall in love back then?

Ann 1:17:57

I would love to see those flashbacks

Izzy 1:18:05

That’s everybody on my list for Anne Elliot

Ann 1:18:7

That’s everyone on my list, I think we’ve made some good connections, it’s been fun

Izzy 1:18:16

Yeah it’s been so fun, it’s been good to just compare and put people together, I don’t know if you ever got any other wild cards that you want to throw out there before we wrap things up?

Ann 1:18:27

I think I just had a couple of ideas, I didn’t make many notes, but when I messaged you I think I said that I can’t help picturing Caroline bungle and Mrs Hurst as the step sisters. I just think they fit that so perfectly, especially in the 1995 one because they’re the dark haired one and the light haired one. It’s so perfect. They’re so desperate to grab At attention and put Elizabeth down. I think that’s a fine comparison and obviously we’ve already talked about this but Mr Darcy and the Beast are perfect and so similar.

Izzy 1:19:11

I totally agree, I think I’ve seen some memes where people have been matching the sisters in Cinderella. It’s really funny. I think in the 1995 they were massive hats and it’s really similar to Cinderella in the crazy dresses. But yeah, I think that’s everything on my part, it’s been great speaking to you and doing this episode with you, I’ve really enjoyed it.

Ann 1:19:41

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, I think your instagram is great and your podcast is great and I can’t wait to listen to more.

Izzy 1:19:49

Thank you so much, I really appreciate that. So where can everyone find you then?

Ann 1:19:56

So you can find me on my YouTube channel, which is @princesslessons and my instagram which is @disneyprincesslessons and I might have a bookstagram as some point and if I do I’ll give it to you for the footnotes.

Izzy 1:20:13

Yeah, great, I always link Ann and everyone I do podcasts with underneath the podcast in the description section so you will be able to find it easily Ann there. That’s everything from me, thank you Ann

Ann 1:20:22

Thank you, it’s been wonderful.