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Episode 60: Mr Darcy's first (failed) proposal: A scene study

Let's discuss Mr. Darcy's misguided first proposal in Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice"! Caily is back and we are decoding Regency-era emojis, dissecting Darcy's cringe-worthy moves, and exploring how each adaptation puts a fresh spin on his character.

From breaking all the etiquette rules to the aftermath of his ego-check moment, we're serving up a quick, laugh-packed discussion on love, pride, and the occasional proposal blunder. Tune in for all the details 🤍📖


Izzy: 0:00

Hi, janeites, and welcome back to the what the Austin podcast. We've got something a little bit different planned today, kind of similar to the character studies that we do, but we're going to do a scene study particularly focusing on Mr Darcy's proposal, the first proposal, the failed one. We thought this would be quite fun, you know, and I suppose because there's a lot of content here relating to Darcy, kind of a bit like a Darcy character study in some ways. You know, pre-redemption age. But yeah, I'm really excited to do this with Kaylee. We thought it would be fun to kind of go through it, kind of through a couple of lines, just a general discussion on it. So welcome back, kaylee.

Caily: 0:38

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to unpack this scene and I love that you just called it the pre-redemption age, because it truly is just one of the most dramatic, iconic scenes between characters that Jane Austen writes. And yeah, it's in that period where we think that Darcy's quite the villain, so I can't wait to unpack this all with you. Darcy's villain here, right, I love it.

Izzy: 1:11

So I thought where we could start is actually just how this all comes about, because this is just after Fitzwilliam has told Elizabeth that it was Darcy who split Bingley and Jane up. Obviously Fitzwilliam was like, yeah, no idea about any of this, so he didn't say it with any, like you know, bad intent, but it just so happens that it was Elizabeth's sister and so she's really upset about this and she's told the Collins that she doesn't want to go to Rosings. She's staying at home on her own because she doesn't feel well. And I just think this is so funny, because this chapter starts with Elizabeth pondering over what Fitzwilliam said and thinking about like how bad it is that Mr Darcy has like no remorse over the fact that he split them up, that actually he was boasting about the misery that he caused, like just I think that was maybe slightly overdramatic and maybe just a little bit more in Lizzie's head, but like I just feel like the scene's set in a way that she's already fuming with him, right?

Caily: 2:08

Yes, I mean, she was never gonna say yes to him, but he was really set up to fail, given that she had just found out this news from Colonel Fitzwilliam. And it's just, it's just so cringe that Colonel Fitzwilliam says something like, well, don't tell anyone, we wouldn't want this ladies family to find out, I mean, while he's talking to Jane's sister, close to sister and best friend, and you're right, it's. It makes it all the more dramatic that the chapter opens with Lizzie rereading Jane's letters and realizing how miserable Jane is in the letters and how, even though she doesn't directly complain of being sad, lizzie's looking back and realizing how her expression and manner of braiding is so much more depressed than how Jane normally shows up. So, yeah, what a way to paint the scene, oh my gosh.

Izzy: 3:10

And then, obviously, getting on to when Mr Darcy enters the room. So it says. She saw Mr Darcy walk into the room in a hurried manner. He immediately began to inquire after her health, imputing his visit for a wish of hearing that she were better. She answered him with cold civility. He sat down for a few moments and then, getting up, walked about the room. Elizabeth was surprised but said not a word. After a silence of several minutes, he came towards her in an agitated manner and thus began in vain.

Izzy: 3:37

I have struggled. It will not do. My feelings will not be repressed. You must allow me to tell you how oddly I admire and love you. Elizabeth's astonishment was beyond expression, I mean one. He obviously couldn't have timed this worse based off of the information that she's got, but it's this urgency right that gets me. Every time. It's like he has, like, found out that she's alone and then has decided to just appear and I thought it'd be really good to chat about. You know, is it that he's found out she's sick, is really worried that she's really sick and so has to find out that she's okay because he's in love with her? Or, alternatively, is it that he's rocking up because he realizes she's on her own and he's like oh, opportunity, she's on her own. I can propose to her now. I'd love to know your thoughts, mama.

Caily: 4:24

It's such a great question because I think it's ambiguous. I think it can be interpreted in several ways. But first thing I want to name is why would you think of doing this when someone's sick? Like why would you show up at their house and imagine she had a bad cold and she's like sniffling?

Caily: 4:43

or like lying down on the couch and it's not the one you didn't want to be proposed to, while you're like sick and you're just like, yeah, no, right, like it's so that is so unromantic, right, but I think, the way I'm so curious what you think, the way I interpret this, is based on what Colonel Fitzwilliam said Darcy was planning on leaving soon, and so I think he was planning on proposing to Lizzie, proposing to Lizzie sometime around this time anyway. And then I think he was genuinely, because he's so besotted by her, I think he genuinely was concerned that she was sick and so he wanted to check on her. And what's? What remains to be seen is when did he go to check on her? And this hat, this proposal happened impulsively, or was he planning to do it already? Anyone to check on her? And he decided to follow through with doing it because he saw that she was feeling a little bit better.

Izzy: 5:54

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean in every direction that you think about it. It's still slightly bad because, like you said, like she was supposed to be ill, but maybe it is that obviously, when he turned up and she was like oh, I'm feeling much better, he was like great, because I've got some stuff to do right now. I need to propose right now. Yeah, I think maybe it's kind of more on that end that it was like, on finding that she was fine, he just went through with it. But I think as well, when you've been pondering on something for such a long time, you know going back and forth on it, on the pros and cons, I think it's interesting that he gets this point of urgency where he's literally just like I need to propose, like it's interesting how much his feelings build up and then, like obviously in the brink of him, like leaving again, he's like no, I need to propose before I leave. And I think for Darcy, who usually comes across like quite a measured character, this seems very irrational and a little bit crazy.

Caily: 6:50

Yeah, I think he okay. The reason I think he was planning on doing it as I'm looking back at this paragraph, is you named it in a hurried manner he immediately began an inquiry after her health, imputing his visit to a wish of hearing that she were better. He he's all about propriety and you're right, he's usually really measured, but he rushes through asking about her family, which makes me think that his mind is on something else. And then, yeah, I think he gets nervous and you feel that urgency and it's kind of this feeling of oh, if he doesn't start speaking now, he's not going to pluck up enough courage to do it.

Izzy: 7:30

Yes, oh my gosh. Yeah, when you were saying that, then I was like that's actually so true. What's really interesting about this, though, in terms of like etiquette of proposing at the time?

Izzy: 7:41

you know, usually your family would arrange a situation where you would be alone with your partner, like for them to propose to you because, like, unengaged couples, were not allowed to just be left alone randomly, and obviously there's a, there's a process that you have to go through, like a man can't just spring a proposal on a woman, like he would have to go to her father, ask permission, then arrange this kind of this meeting, this opportunity for it. I think what's the term that they usually use A arrangement no, I keep thinking appointment Audience, audience.

Izzy: 8:19

Mr Collins obviously says he wants an audience with Lizzie and that is what you have to do, like that is just the rules of proposing in Regency England, like you go to the father, you speak to the family and then there's this arranged meeting where the man can then propose. So Mr Darcy, just appearing out of nowhere, going to Lizzie when her family's far away and choosing to propose to and her friends, met her and her friends and they'll go on to Rosings, so she is on her own in this house, and then him just turning up to propose is actually, you know, very improprietist in a sense, because it's just not really proper to just do that and to spring this kind of announcement on somebody or to be just left alone in a building with a man you're not engaged to already.

Caily: 9:02

This is such a good point, and I think it shows his lack of respect for the propriety of her family. I think this is definitely the case, and when you say this too, I'm like, oh my gosh, does this mean that, etiquette wise, mr Collins did a better job and was more in alignment with propriety than Mr Darcy in this case? Because, if so, that's so out of character for Mr Darcy, because I remember how affronted Mr Darcy was when Mr Collins introduced himself to him and talked about Lady Catherine without some mutual acquaintance introducing them. Remember when Mr Darcy just walks away from Mr Collins?

Izzy: 9:47

Yes, exactly, oh my gosh, when you said that, though it's like, is this just, does this just show the disrespect that Mr Darcy has for Elizabeth's family, that he didn't go through like the usual means of like acquiring approval and all of that kind of thing? And that leads me on to some of the lines that are shocking. Like just a few lines down, it's describing, like you know, Mr Darcy's in a turmoil that he's gone through before this proposal and it's say it states his sense of her inferiority, of its being a degradation. Now I think this is just absolutely shocking because you know, this means that he is embarrassed, like ashamed. The fact that he has feelings for it is actually just like kind of repulsive to him because he sees her family in such lower standing. And I just think what a horrific thing to say when you're literally about to like propose to somebody like some of the lines that he says are so bad it honestly gets me every time.

Caily: 10:53

Oh, I'm looking at it too, it's so, it's so true, and I just think I see so much entitlement, right, like I'm looking higher up to where you read before where he is so lacking social awareness because he's about his own agenda that she answered him with cold civility, right. And he says in vain. I have struggled. You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you. And it says Elizabeth's astonishment was beyond expression. She stared, colored, doubted and was silent. And then it says this he considered sufficient encouragement. Like he's not reading her at all, he's not attuning to her and, yeah, sense of her inferiority, of it being a degradation. It's so judgmental. And she there's a part where she says, basically, that she would have been kinder in her refusal had he not made it so blatantly clear that he was repulsed, that he had feelings for her and that he was trying to overcome these feelings so much.

Izzy: 12:08

Yes, oh, my God, I love that you pointed out that he's literally like Elizabeth's showing all of this, like that she's uncomfortable right and is like what is actually going on right now and he doesn't pick up on that. But doesn't that speak to? Like all of this, why are you proposing, like, where have these been these green flags? When has Lizzie ever shown you any marked interest of expression of her feelings, in a sense that you think this is a good idea?

Izzy: 12:35

I just can't get my head around it and like I try and compare it to like other proposals, like, if you think of, like the Mr Altum one, sometimes I can see that from his perspective because he doesn't realize that Emma intends him for Harriet and so all of this like attention that she's showing it does in a way come across like she is doing it for him, and because he can never see himself with Harriet, the only logical way he can see it is oh, emma's interested in me. But I might be funny. But when does Lizzie show that she is at all interested in Mr Darcy? It just like is so weird to me that he just decides to do this.

Caily: 13:17

That is such a good point with Mr Elton, because while Emma's shocked, we as an audience understand why he felt misled right Like it was a complete misunderstanding where, when she was advocating for Harriet, he thought that Emma was declaring that she wanted to be with him, whereas you're exactly right Elizabeth gives Mr Darcy no signals that she likes him. If anything, she's pretty hostile towards him and I think it goes to show again the entitlement. I don't think Mr Darcy has ever been told no in his life before this, and I think he knows that he's the catch he's. Many other women would do anything to be with him and I love this part that shows his entitlement too. That says, as he said, this she could easily see that he had no doubt of a favorable answer. He spoke of apprehension and anxiety, but his countenance expressed real security.

Izzy: 14:21

Oh my gosh, no, so bad. And there's just like something that I want to pick up on this as well, because this again shows how inappropriate Mr Darcy's proposal is in terms of like Regency Attica, because I read there's a copy that I have that has like annotations Well, it's kind of like an introduction slash annotations from Shepard, david Shepard, and it's like a 2011 version of Sense and Sensibility, because I think the conversation was implied towards Edward Ferris, but it's just interesting to see this in the context of Darcy as well. It says, according to the conventions of proposing, a man should express great doubt about the woman's answer, regardless of what he felt about his probable reception. This would be a sign of respect, since it suggests that her charms were such that she could expect many worthy offers of marriage. So I just think that's so interesting. You're meant to go into the proposal.

Izzy: 15:14

You know I'm sure you've got hundreds of men after you. Like you're such a great cat, I would love for you to be my wife but I know that, like you know, you'll have other authors. Like you're a wonderful woman, you're not meant to go into a proposal being like friend, you're inferior to me. I've been battling these feelings because I feel like I could probably do better, but I'm in love with you so it's a bit tough.

Caily: 15:38

Oh my gosh. Yeah, and this is. We know that Lizzie at times was blind to character judgment, right, Like with Mr Wickham. But it's interesting, Mr Darcy pretends to do that right after he says it's a degradation, right, he spoke of apprehension and anxiety, Like maybe he was following that policy being, oh, will you accept me? But she saw through that, she said. But his countenance expressed real security. So she saw that he had no doubt and she saw what a farce it was.

Izzy: 16:14

And he confirmed later that he actually didn't have any intentions to be like modest in the way that he was proposing to it. Because I swear later on before, like when they start like getting into the heat of the arguments, I think he basically said he says you know, you may have been less offended had I flattered you and like concealed my struggles. But he says you know, disguise of every sort is my abhorrence Like he just can't hide his true feelings. She knows that she sees straight through it. And like even him trying to pretend, like he's trying to be like oh, maybe you won't want me. Deep down, that's not how he feels. He feels that she will accept him because of his status in life and I love that Elizabeth actually speaks to that as well. She doesn't just refuse him, but she says I'm almost obligated to say yes to you because of who you are. So she recognizes the stance that he's coming from, but then still refuses him anyway because she has standards, as we all should have.

Caily: 17:16

And it is pretty incredible that, given her social standing, given the entire situation, it shows a lot of self-respect that she in that moment, particularly when she's being so horribly insulted that she can stand her ground and stay classy but also call him out. I mean, she is incredible in this scene.

Izzy: 17:44

Yeah, also, I'm sorry, but I would not be that composed I love how eloquent and composed she is in like her responses to him because I feel like I'd be such a mess I'd be all over the place, I wouldn't even know where to start. I would just be like I'm just silent, like what I know I could imagine someone crying too.

Caily: 18:05

Like when he says could you rejoice? Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections?

Izzy: 18:12

He is so cruel, yes, but also like why would I say yes to you under any circumstances, because I feel like he goes to it like oh, you and your sister are set apart, but it's like that doesn't necessarily make me feel any better, because you've offended all of my other friends and I've offended all of my other friends and family, so I don't understand what stance you would be coming from. That I'd be like I'm better than them, oh great, that's fantastic. Like you'd have to be a pretty awful person yourself to be like you don't like my friends, that's cool. Yeah, whatever you know, they are of lower standard. No, you're going to be like well, they're my friends and that's my family. I'm sorry. Like what planet are you coming from?

Caily: 18:52

Yeah, I find that part it's interesting. I used to find that part where he said that Jane and Lizzie weren't like the rest of the family and hadn't done anything improprietist. I used to think I was like, oh, that was fair of him to say. But on the last, on the read back this time, I found it really patronizing. It's why, why are you commenting on that? Just like you said, it puts her in a horrible position where, OK, even if you're complimenting me, it's at the expense of people that I love. So how dare you?

Izzy: 19:32

And I love that. She names Like. She literally says you know a design of offending and assaulting me. You chose to tell me that you liked me against your will, against your reason and even against your character, Like, yes, that is so wrong. Like somebody telling you that they like you but they technically hate the fact that they like you. And they've outlined why, like basically pointing out all the things that, let's be clear, Elizabeth probably felt insecure about anyway. She's not a stranger to the fact that her family can be inappropriate, publicly, right, and so isn't it not so much worse sometimes, especially when somebody like Darcy points out these flaws to you. How awful is that? That just is so uncomfortable and horrible. It makes it 10 times worse.

Caily: 20:19

Yes, and what makes it so amazing is that, instead of crumpling and shutting down when he's pointing out things that she already knows about her family, she's able to stand her ground and is able to see that, despite his status, despite his money, despite his looks, despite all of these advantages that he has, she sees how he's improprietist, she sees how he's being inappropriate and she calls it out. And I think I just think 9 out of 10 women would not have done that in that moment.

Izzy: 20:58

Even now, even now, right, there will be times that if there's a man that you're interested in or you see as impressive, it can be hard to stand up for yourself in those moments, like if they point something else. But I think a lot of women have this sometimes that they feel losing a man, to the sense that they'll sometimes disregard some of their own values, some of their own judgments, the ways that they would usually show up, and I think this is something that you have to work on. You have to build yourself that you can be like actually, no, I will stand up for what I believe, what are my values. But, yeah, I think it's tough, right, and this is Mr Darcy.

Izzy: 21:38

Standing up to him is so impressive and I know in the past, like we've said, a lot of the ways that Lizzie's quite rude and judgmental and often not showing up for her friends, but in this moment she does. She shows up for her friends and family, including herself, which I think is even more important sometimes, especially because this is a one-on-one situation, she's like actually, I need to choose myself in this situation and I'm not going to get intimidated by your money or your status or any of this. No, I'm going to point out where you are wrong which I just love Me too.

Caily: 22:17

I think the part where she really puts him most in his place is when she says oh my gosh, it's after he says can you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections, to congratulate myself on the hope of relations whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own? She goes, it's so bad, and then she goes. You are mistaken, mr Darcy, if you suppose that the mode of your declaration affected me in any other way than as it spared me the concern which I might have felt in refusing you had you behaved in a more gentlemanlike manner. I mean, she puts him in his place, and I wanted to talk to you about the nonverbals, because there are only two times during this proposal where words described how he is visibly emotional with the nonverbals and right after it says she saw him start at this, and yeah, so I wanted to see what you were thinking about that.

Izzy: 23:23

Yeah, I think it's interesting that this is what bothers him the most.

Izzy: 23:27

It's not that she's upset about what he said about her family being inferior, or the fact that she tells him she knows that it was him who spits up Jane and Bingley, right, and that's massive to Elizabeth and I think he's like embarrassed about that. But I think he's just embarrassed that she knows not what he's done, but this, when she points out that he is not acting like a gentleman, this sticks with him and you can tell that this like changes, because I feel like he stops retaliating the same way after she says this. This checks him in a way that no other comment does. I think that's so interesting because I think this is something that he values so highly, just like the way that he comes across and it says if he's been like I don't know, in some kind of daloo-loo land for the first part of the proposal where he's been acting so opposite, to like his true character, I would say. And then at this moment he's like, oh God, like I'm not showing off as my best self. I need to check myself.

Caily: 24:25

This is so true. He responds so much to her insinuating he didn't act like a gentleman. His astonishment was obvious. He looked at her with an expression of mingled incredulity and mortification this you see so much emotion here and you're right. It's so interesting how he responds here, contrasted to how he responds to hearing that she knows about Jane and Bingley, like he literally says to her about Jane and Bingley he goes. I have no wish to deny this and I was really shocked. There wasn't remorse or embarrassment there. But here he is horrified that she says he's not acting like a gentleman. And I remember you and I another time we're talking about this and you compared his behavior to the ultimate gentleman in Austin's novels, which is Mr Knightley, the knight in shining armor. And yeah, I just remember how you compared the proposal to Emma that Mr Knightley had versus Mr Darcy here, and it really is night and day.

Izzy: 25:32

He is Mr Knightley and Emma. Both are wealthy, totally see that. But Mr Knightley is a catch right. He is, like Darcy, an established man and his proposal to Emma is so he's so vulnerable and he goes into it with all the ideas of, like I'm not expecting anything from you, I just needed to tell you my feelings, right, darcy's like I need to tell you my feelings and you're going to respond in a way that I see acceptable. You're going to accept my hand in marriage, like we are going to be together. There's such a like a dominance in the way that Darcy does it which is totally just not nice, not a vibe, total, you know, positive masculine energy. Compared to Mr Knightley, who comes in with really positive masculine energy. He is like I am going to be assertive, I am going to tell you how I feel, but I'm not going to demand a response from you. Like I'll let you sit with this you know, like tell me what, whatever, and we're all good.

Izzy: 26:30

So yeah, I think, and obviously Mr Knightley as well. He is such the pinnacle of being a gentleman because he checks so many other people on this right. That's what his issue with Frank Churchill is. He's like Frank Churchill never shows up like a gentleman. It bothers him massively Mr Darcy just not sure as a gentleman in this the fact that Mr Darcy keeps arguing back with Lizzie literally before that point he is like.

Caily: 26:52

Basically says to her like oh, here he goes.

Izzy: 26:57

He says this is all the reply. This is all the reply which I am to have the honor of expecting. I might perhaps wish to be informed why we're so little endeavor of civility. I am thus rejected, but it is of small importance. He's like. I need to know why you've, like, rejected me, but also like I don't care that much. It's like do you care? Because you've asked like you need more information. This cracks me up because I just feel like this is so true to life, right.

Caily: 27:30

I highlighted that exact line and, oh my gosh, it was. It's so passive, aggressive, that final line that's like. But it is of small importance. And what's interesting is it does make him look worse in the novel, because I'm growing up, I watched the 1995 adaptation all of the time and it has this entire part, but it's. It took out that final line, but it is of small importance.

Izzy: 27:59

So you see, here he's really being a butt, but it's just acting like very harsh and the fact that they chose to cut it out just shows how bad that line is, yeah, how petty he looks. But also I think it's good to know that, like many of the adaptations, the agent is slightly off. You know, colin Firth, I think you said in the past was he 35 in that adaptation when they were recording?

Caily: 28:30

Yeah, so Darcy is 25 in the novel, but Colin Firth was 35.

Izzy: 28:35

I think that's an important point to make as well. Right, because saying this and then ending it with but it's of small importance is very much what I would say men in their 20s would say like I'm in my 20s, like this, is the kind of interaction that I could expect, not just like, oh well, you know Tommy Weasel can improve. It's, like you know, a bit snarky in it as well. Yeah.

Izzy: 29:00

I wish a great video on this, like talking. I mean, I don't want to get too dark, but it was talking about the kind of dangers to women in rejecting men, because they can come back with, actually, you know, volatility, and they can be quite violent or they can be aggressive in their response back if they are rejected, and I think this, like in this part of the proposal, his response back is very negative, is very domineering, like he is fighting back with her, and I'm not saying, I mean, we know Elizabeth can hold her own and she's equally going back and forth with him, but how inappropriate. In the grand scheme of things, anyway, she shouldn't have to, she shouldn't have to raise to this level where they're like in this massive debate and we can all be like, oh, that's super sexy, and like blah, blah, blah, but is it? Is it, though, like I feel like you know you've got to have like a normal conversation with somebody. I don't know what your thoughts on that?

Caily: 29:50

Yeah, I mean, I think it's one thing to stand up for yourself or if you think there's an injustice to say it, but you're right here, he's. He's just snarky and kind of mean spirited and I think if he had said on the spot, I understand why he doesn't, because it's a lot to process on the spot, but if he had explained the Wickham situation and said no, you got this wrong, I need to explain myself. But he doesn't like that's the one part he holds back from. That's the second part where you see, with nonverbals he gets kind of emotional. Where does it say it? Um, this is you take an eager interest. Oh yeah, there we go. Yeah, exactly, you take an eager interest in that gentleman's concerns, said Darcy in a less tranquil tone and with a heightened color. So it's subtle, but you see that that affects him. But then he doesn't say anything about it. He just continues to be very harsh and talk about her family and insult them.

Izzy: 30:59

I think that's really interesting. When I was rewatching the 1995 version, colin Firth makes a really good facial expressions in this where it's like he's trying to work out what she's referring to. Like he spends like a good like 30 seconds being like like trying to ponder over in his head. I think that's such a great point, because Mr Darcy doesn't have any of the knowledge of what Wiccan's been saying, so he's trying to fathom in his mind what is possibly being said. That paints me in the bad life because from his perspective it was all Wiccan right. And so I get that he doesn't respond because he probably, like I don't even understand how to respond to this because I don't know what page you're reading from.

Caily: 31:41

Yeah, and you're so right, Colin Firth does some brilliant acting there because when she started talking about Wiccan, you see his eye movement. He kind of looks up and around. It's like he's been bludgeoned over the head. Wait, like what? Wiccan? What?

Izzy: 31:57

Oh, don't tell you what Shown into poverty because of me. I think he's got some money.

Caily: 32:06

Yeah, I, oh my gosh, that that must have been. I can see him just freezing and not knowing how to process that one and needing a little more time.

Izzy: 32:17

Yeah, and I think that obviously adds to his anger as well, because he's got such a terrible past with Wiccan and like it must be. It must have been quite awful actually, like in terms of like the book. You know you're in love with somebody and they're turning around to you and they're basically saying that they favor your worst enemy. They're like you're this guy's wonderful, you've done terrible things to him. I mean, that's just another blow, isn't it really? You're just like okay, so you just don't like me in general, so you're rejecting me, but also you're choosing my worst enemy over me.

Caily: 32:53

Oh my gosh, when you say this, when you say this, this does make me feel for him, because in the next paragraph, when he's like hurling all these insults at her, he's probably so angry at that situation because, you're right, he knows this is his mortal enemy, who has hurt the person he loves the most, who's his sister and he realizes that there's been this narrative spun where he's the villain, when he knows that this guy has tried to like suck a lot of money out of him and has hurt the person he loves the most in the world, who's his sister.

Caily: 33:32

So he is very angry at Lizzie after and is hurling all these insults. But it's probably because he's processing and so frustrated at the situation with Wickham that he hasn't been able to explain to her yet.

Izzy: 33:50

Yeah, I feel like it makes sense to kind of go away and just like sit with it and readdress, because he's kind of been blindsided already. Right, the fact that Lizzie already knew that it was him to split Wickham and Jane Bingley and Jane off as well, like that in itself, like I know it says that he was wholly unmoved. But at the same time, like we're just adding onto problems here you know, we're not, we're not gaining any, any brownie points to his character at this point, like it's just, it's just bad thing after bad thing, and so I feel like he needs to go and reset because it's like wow, I came into this thinking you were just going to say yes and now I've realized that actually I've got so much work to do to even just be like be able to be amicable with you, you know.

Caily: 34:39

Yeah, yes, again. It's like he keeps being bludgeoned over the head with all of this information and all the reasons why she despises, actively, despises him.

Izzy: 34:54

I know it's bad. I'd love to talk about as well just the way that he, when he ends, like before he leaves, he says you have said quite enough, madam. I can't understand your feelings. You've said quite enough, madam. I perfectly comprehend your feelings and have now only to be ashamed of what my own have been. Now, this bothers me so much because I'm like Dossy, the issue was not that you had feelings for Elizabeth, like he's all, like it's so embarrassing, I'm so ashamed that I have feelings for you. The issue is not your feelings, it is the delivery of this proposal. Like that bothers me to no end, because I'm like why are you pretending like the problem here is your feelings?

Caily: 35:35

Oh my gosh, that's such a good point Is the? You're right, he, he's. He feels shamed and he's ashamed of the, the good natured and pure and like, kind and like, like all of the, all of the romantic feelings he has for Lizzie. He's ashamed of those as opposed to the point, which is that the delivery was so insulting and and that it's against his, against what he thinks his better judgment is like. He doesn't get that. It's that insulting part of it, that is the shameful part and that is really sad.

Izzy: 36:15

And I think it's really interesting that Jane Austen does this a lot, because in a lot of her other novels it's the really unconventional proposals that are often seen as the most romantic about, the ones that we all like swoon over and the ones that are successful. Like I know, this one isn't successful, but even Darcy's latter proposal, which is successful, is still unconventional in the grand scheme of things. You know, they're just like walking together nobody knows still, and he proposes again.

Izzy: 36:40

I think it's interesting, it's just interesting Jane Austen's stance on proposals because all the ones that fail at the bumbling ones actually conventionally are correct. Like the way they go about it is in a way that is socially acceptable.

Caily: 36:53

This is such an interesting point and makes me think did Jane Austen approve of these conventions around proposals and is she making some kind of commentary suggesting that maybe that's not how it should be or that's that's not romantic? I think that's a very good point because, yeah, mr Darcy doesn't follow any of those conventions, particularly with the first proposal, and again, I think it's because he feels so entitled to Lizzie, and Lizzie saying yes, that he doesn't think he has to go about those conventions with her family.

Izzy: 37:38

Yeah, and it's like most proposals would have been received positively, because it was actually seen as bad etiquette for like women to refuse, because if a man thinks he has enough green flags to propose to you, it would suggest that the woman had been encouraging that attachment. And so for a woman to encourage an attachment only then to reject that person would be seen as like just really, really bad, and so in that sense as well, it's interesting. It's interesting that Darcy thinks that this is all like and also that's even worse, right, lizzie, saying that she's got this obligation to say yes. That goes beyond just being like because you're rich. It's actually because, oh my gosh, you think that I was leading you on. Essentially, like you know, that's a reason in itself to say yes, but for a lot of women in this time period, which, as you say, that is so puts Lizzie in such an awkward position because we all see that she did nothing.

Caily: 38:39

Let's feel like try to get his attention. If anything, she was often putting him at arm's length and challenging him, being sort of hostile to him and curt with him. So that does put her in a really awkward position because he just there's such presumption there on his side he just assumed all of these things.

Izzy: 39:01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like well, she says herself, she says it was gratifying to have inspired unconsciously so strong of affection. She's totally unaware, like that she's done this or how she's done this or anything like that. So I just think that's just like fascinating in itself and I just think it's hilarious that actually Mr Collins is the one who turns up and actually his proposal is more on point than Darcy's is.

Caily: 39:28

Yeah it's. Oh my gosh, I can't. Content wise, mr Collins floundered Right like being like I want to marry you because Lady Catherine told me so, but convention wise, mr Collins, really that the upper hand there?

Izzy: 39:46

Okay, huggy's going to join for just a second because he's naughty.

Caily: 39:50

Oh, hello sweetie, Can I join?

Izzy: 39:53

Hello little huggy Hello, Can I eat here? You can't eat anything here. No One, oh my gosh. One other thing that I want to bring up is the fact that, at the time, women could get out of marriage proposals, so like if you accepted a proposal we see this with Jane Austen herself, like she accepts the proposal only to refuse him the next day. So you could do that as a woman, you could get out of a proposal. A man cannot get out of the proposal, or it's extremely difficult, and so I think this is interesting as well, that Mr Darcy is so sure that she will say yes that he's willing to tie himself in, like literally lock himself in with Elizabeth because he couldn't get out of it after that point, which I think is interesting when you look at the Edward Ferrer's situation as well.

Caily: 40:44

That's such a good point. And, wow, that sort of gave me chills because, just like you said, jane Austen refused a proposal herself, right, wasn't it? 24 hours later, after she was proposed too, and she had said yes, she went back and refused the proposal. But you're saying so. You're saying that women were able to do that more freely, but men, once they proposed it was, they were completely locked in and they had to stay loyal to that.

Izzy: 41:13

Yes, but doesn't that show then that this is such a big deal to Darcy and it makes sense that he's pondered back and forth and that he's been like in vain? I have struggled, like I'll be struggling with this because, yes, this is a big deal. You can't just go around proposing to everyone. You wouldn't do that now anyway. Obviously, men aren't just rocking up and proposing to women randomly, but I think it does show that you have to consider this quite seriously.

Caily: 41:38

Absolutely, and so it does show that he was struggling with things and that he's practically taking everything into consideration. I'm sure he knows what Lady Catherine's horrified response is going to be. He's factoring all of these things in, but you don't sit there and insult the woman that you're telling you love for the first time and say how much you struggle because she's of such low status. It's just really not taking any of her feelings into consideration. It's very much about his own agenda, and so I think it really shows, from this point until the end of the novel, how much he grows as a person and does authentically build respect for her. Can you imagine, if she had said yes, how different the levels of respect would have been for her in their marriage?

Izzy: 42:33

Oh, oh my gosh, no, yeah, no, it's definitely so important that she set her boundaries here, because that set her up to be so. He just valued her so much higher because of that, because she set the boundaries, because she said no, because she pushed back, so important, oh my goodness. You have to set the standard of how you're going to, how you want your like partner to show up. He can't turn up insulting you and saying horrible stuff. I love that point so much, kaley. Oh my gosh, that is literally just like yes, absolutely. And also, oh my God, how embarrassing. He's got some great links to convince his friend not to marry Jane, but then he's proposed to her sister I'm sorry, family dinner parties, like your friend is going to be around Jane again, like what actually done?

Caily: 43:19

Oh my gosh. Okay, since I was a little girl, even watching the whole proposal, I was always like what, if he dragged his friend away, why is he then proposing to someone else in the family? Like? This is so freaking hypocritical. I could even see that when I was a little girl. I was like what?

Izzy: 43:37

are you?

Caily: 43:37

doing. But I never thought, until you pointed it out, how awkward it would have been if Lizzie had said yes to Darcy but things were unresolved between Bingley and Jane, and then Bingley and Jane would have been in the same social circle, like having to interact with each other.

Izzy: 43:53

But also what a waste of time. What a waste of time because you've done all of this only for them to be around each other on numerous occasions again. So what was the point of separating them in the first place? If you were always planning on proposing to Elizabeth, maybe Darcy thought like I'll get over it, but then she happens to be like but he goes to Rosings purposely to see her. I'm like you're not helping yourself. Our friend, and I looked at he's like I was kind of to Bingley than to myself and it's like what, what are you on?

Caily: 44:22

It's so inconsistent and maybe that's an enactment showing showing the conflict. Like he tries to act logically and rationally and maybe he really thinks he's going to pull Bingley away and maybe he really thinks that he won't pursue Elizabeth. But then as time goes on he realizes he can't stop thinking about her, he has to propose to her. But it is just mayhem and I think too, like we always, we tend to focus on Jane's hurt in this, because that's what's discussed in this scene and then the subsequent letter. But like how about the fact that Darcy also just saw that the that his best friend, was more in love with someone than he had ever seen him in love before, and then just drags him away and doesn't really attune to to his judgment or his happiness, like he is not the best of friends here.

Izzy: 45:18

Yeah, oh, my goodness, shall we move on and chat a little bit about the letter than it as well, on the topic of Jane and Bingley, because obviously that's picked up a little bit more. And then we also get, obviously, the reveal that Mr, that Mr Wickham isn't quite the catch that he tried to make out like he was. Do you want to? Should we pick up a little bit on that and just have that links back to the proposal? Because I something that I want to point out which is so funny yeah, the fact that when Mr Darcy starts this letter, he says be not alarmed by the non receiving this letter, and then carries on. I never understood why I said be not alarmed and I was like, oh, is it just because he's like, oh, I don't want to freak out, I'm going to keep arguing with you again.

Izzy: 45:59

But actually letter writing was one of the only other forms of proposing that you could use. So you could propose obviously in person if you'd spoken to their family and they'd created this audience, but also you could propose via letter. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, maybe he's saying like you know, I'm not going to eat because it says containing any repetition of those sentiments or renewals of those offers which were last night so disgusting to you. So I was like, oh my God, yes, he's trying to say to her like, look, I'm not going to propose to you again, but I only have I only clocked that in this rereading where I was literally just like, oh my gosh, he's saying don't be alarmed because she's getting this letter. She's like, oh my God, he's going to do it again.

Caily: 46:43

Yeah, like he's not going to take no for an answer. Oh my gosh, I missed a close situation.

Izzy: 46:48

It's a no. It's no just like in this moment, but really it's a yes, no it's a no.

Caily: 46:54

No means no, yeah, I. So, after we did our letters episode and did the research and prepped for that, this makes a lot of sense too, because letters were quite intimate, right, men and women did not write to each other unless it was a new, you know immediate family member like your dad or your brother, someone related to you, or if you were engaged or married. So the fact that he's writing this letter to her and they're not engaged, it is quite not even a good term Right.

Caily: 47:29

It's a very intimate platform for the time, and so he just addresses it right off the bat, and thank goodness, because that might have been a real rollercoaster for her it's still.

Izzy: 47:40

Oh my God, it makes me out so much as well that he just walks around this area, that she walks around just loads in like hopes that he'll bump into her like that in itself so cringy right that he's just stood there waiting for the chance that she might walk, because that's especially usually what I was like. I don't know if that is kind of romantic, but he's done that. But also I'm like little bit stalker, little bit stalker.

Caily: 48:07

Yeah, like fine line between romantic attentive observant and slightly stalker, I mean yeah, urgency right.

Izzy: 48:16

This guy's got no chill in this moment, like when he's like knows what he wants. He's like one rocks up to a house, next thing you know he's going to stand for ages, just like in an area where she might be walking that day. I'm just like French, but no chill.

Caily: 48:30

Yeah, I mean, we can't say he isn't persistent.

Izzy: 48:33

Shall we pick up a couple of lines out. He points out that he says the ones of connection could not be so great and evil to my friend as to me, stating that he doesn't see that the Jane and Bingley situation would have been as bad for Bingley as him, marianne Elizabeth, which makes the whole situation 10 times worse. Right, so he's actually saying that the gap between Jane and Bingley and society is not so great and so then, marrying is not so out there, like people, even assuming that they were going to marry, yes, it would be advantageous, but it wasn't so extreme, they wasn't. You know what I mean? People weren't going around. Allulu, like, like, this is like such a cruel match. She's going to, like you know, marry the King of England or something.

Izzy: 49:11

No, it was like literally somebody who technically isn't the same ballpark in many ways, and yet he still splits them up and he says it's actually a great evil. Like the gap between me and you, elizabeth, is much greater. But I'm going to go along with this Like what. It just shows the hypocrisy. It just makes no sense. I don't get his logic in that at all and the fact that he goes around saying he's a rational man like there's no. Where's the rationality?

Caily: 49:38

I know it is really frustrating. I've always found that whole situation with him taking Bingley away and then pursuing Elizabeth so hypocritical and strange and I think again, it's supposed to show that most of the time he does think very logically, but when it comes to Elizabeth he just can't let me, can't put those feelings aside. But yeah, it's. I mean, it's just such an interesting contrast between his lack of being apologetic in the in the section with with Bingley and Jane and and a lot of the hotty-ness and pride is still there, but then with with Wickham I, I don't know. I feel a lot more sympathetic to to that situation.

Izzy: 50:28

Yeah, I think there is. There are a few lines in the Jane Bingley situation which I think does kind of soften my feelings towards him. One it says that you know it pains me to offend you when he picks back up on the fact that he'd been saying how inferior everybody was and that him and his and Jane and Elizabeth have set apart. And then he also said you know, if I have been misled by such error to inflict pain on her, your resentment has not been unreasonable. So I feel like he does take accountability there, where he's like I need to accept the fact that maybe I was wrong here, that actually Jane does have feelings for him that I didn't pick up on because Jane's quite private and it wasn't that necessarily that obvious, and that him splitting them up was a mistake.

Izzy: 51:11

And I kind of appreciate that he picked, he that he is open to accepting the fact that he was wrong, you know, because I feel like that's taken itself right. So he easily could have just been like I'm not wrong, I'm just going to stay the way that I am, you know, I mean it's these transitions. I think it's taking accountability and then actually being a little bit more empathetic and saying I'm sorry that I've you know it pains me to actually offend you. I feel I recognize what I'm saying is actually really mean Gosh you know what?

Caily: 51:39

This is such a good point, izzy. I almost just called you Lizzie. Did you hear that? I'm like in the Lizzie, I'm telling Elizabeth about it. This is such a good point, and I'm looking at this section too. He does say, you know, he does explain that he was convinced that though she received his attentions with pleasure, she did not invite them by any participant. Patient of sentiment, right. And? And then he does acknowledge your superior knowledge of your sister must make the latter probable right, that you're right about her feelings and I was wrong. Yeah, he does. He does take accountability there and says I could have been wrong and you know I'm sorry for that. So, yeah, I think I think we have to. We have to give him some credit. We have to give him some credit for that, because in the original proposal his response is just. I have no wish to deny it, but here he does show a little bit of accountability and remorse if he was wrong about James feelings.

Izzy: 52:50

Yeah, I think the reflection time definitely helps in. Like that he's able to go back right the letter and actually sit and ponder on it. And I think for most of us right things that we say in the heat of the moment we go back after and we're like oh my God, what the hell was I saying? Like, on reflection, we're like what was that? Even on, something that bothers me about Darcy is this fact that he like observes people and then makes snap judgments about it. That's honestly something that I hate more than anything myself. And I sympathize with James so much because I'm like just like, if I'm out in public, like I don't want everybody knowing my business. So even if you are like getting close to somebody, you don't want to be like totally overt about that. So everybody's gossiping about. I mean, jane already already struggles with the fact that people gossiping about her, constantly talking about her, and Bingley, why would you want to invite more of that? You?

Izzy: 53:36

know, so I think it's really bad that Darcy's just like she's not showing any interest in him. It's like take a stance in her shoes, darcy. Like genuinely, are we going around being like totally overt with our feelings? Are you going around like talking to Elizabeth one on one constantly, or are you taking some measured action here?

Caily: 53:53

Like yeah, it's actually. It's kind of a bit of projection what he says about Jane, isn't it? Because he, like even Charlotte Lucas, who sort of suspects but nobody everybody's shocked that Darcy cares for Elizabeth so much because he's so reserved with his behavior and his manner and how he goes about interacting with her. So I just think it's very rich that he labels Jane in this way when he keeps his feelings so close to the chest and doesn't let anyone see how he's feeling.

Izzy: 54:34

I know and it's so sad because he says his mode of like apper on that like to get Bingley off this is that he convinced Bingley that Bingley had deceived himself. You know he was like she isn't interested in you and convinced Bingley to see it that way as well because Bingley was like I think she isn't to me. I think we've got something good going on here. Darcy went to Great Lakes to convince Bingley that he was mistaken, that he couldn't trust his own judgments.

Caily: 55:00

Yeah, and it's like okay way to gaslight your friend and make your friend feel bad and doubt himself. Yeah, I think it was totally inappropriate. What Mr Darcy did and I think the only way you could look at it that makes him seem more favorable is I think he's probably used to women and families throwing themselves at him because of his status money looks all of it and so he probably witnessed Mrs Bennett's behavior. Remember, mrs Bennett is loudly talking to everyone about how she wants Jane and Bingley married and talking about how much money people make, and so maybe he thought he was protecting his friend from Mrs Bennett and from this gold digging situation. But it still needed to be for Bingley to decide, and I think it was. Mr Darcy was way too much of a busy body getting involved and taking such an active role.

Izzy: 56:07

Yeah, I totally agree. I totally totally agree. Do you want to chat a little bit about your thoughts on, like the way that he describes the Wickham situation and just like how he wraps that up? Because I feel like this is for Darcy is like a really important moment that he gets to state his truth and actually the truth about the whole Wickham situation, because there's changes, everything right going forward.

Caily: 56:28

Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this part. I really feel like he was fair in his portrayal of the situation. Like he starts it off with saying Mr Wickham is the son of a very respectable man. He doesn't make the situation black and white where he just said completely vilifies Wickham. He gives the backstory, saying you know, Mr Wickham was actually one of my father's favorites. My father had a special relationship with him. Mr Wickham's father was a really good guy and I don't know. I think when it isn't so black and white it really makes me trust the narrative more. Yeah, again it says my father was not only fond of this, fond of this young man's society whose manners were always engaging. He also had the highest opinion of him and hoping the church would be his profession and intended to provide for him in it. So he gives all of the details.

Izzy: 57:32

Right and I love that. Then, when Elizabeth goes back, she's able to confirm Darcy is telling the truth, because of the sprinkles that Mr Wickham left behind as well, and she's like, actually, well, if he said that and he said that, that would suggest that this is the truth and I love that because I think that is so important. And yes, you know, mr Darcy's not outright just like Mr Wickham's a bad guy and I love that he doesn't say that in the proposal either. Like he quite easily could have turned around and been like your friends are div. I hate him Like he's a bad guy. He's a bad guy. He's a gold digger.

Izzy: 58:05

Like I don't know what else to say. You've got terrible friends as well as your family. You're like you just you're proving my point that you picked terrible people to hang around with. But he doesn't do that right and he states you know, like my, this was everything that happened. Like you said, the backstory. I think that is important to gain his own credibility. You know, because, like you said, if somebody comes in black and white, this person's bad, this person's good. For me that's like an antenna. I'm like something off it. You know, it's like if you go on a date with somebody and they're just like enough their ex, all their exes, constantly. You're like you might be the common denominator.

Caily: 58:45

Right right, it makes you not trust the narrative because it can't have all been so bad. And even you know I think Mr Darcy is really classy to in conveying the information, like even when he says Mr Mr Wickham should not hit, should not be a clergyman. I need to find the exact. Oh, I knew that Mr Wickham ought not to be a clergyman. Which insinuates so much. But it doesn't directly say that he's a womanizer, he's a cat, all of these different things. Like he, he says it in a way that's subtle.

Izzy: 59:22

Not a great profession for this guy. Not going to go into details, but it's not. It's not going to work out.

Caily: 59:27

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I really think that Mr Darcy is very classy and how he explains the whole, the whole Wickham scenario and, given the fact that this was so vulnerable Um, like Mr Darcy and Colonel Fitzwilliam wanted this to stay secret about Georgiana Remember in the when Lizzie's walking with Colonel Fitzwilliam and she makes a joke about Georgiana, colonel Fitzwilliam gets all stiff and and is like what do you know? You can tell they're so protective of Georgiana, and so it. I thought that it was extremely vulnerable of Mr Darcy to put this in writing and to put this in a right in writing to a woman that has said that she actively despises him and he's the last man that she'd ever marry and who's connected with Wickham. I just think that that that was really impressive that he did that, given that he cares so much that this situation remain a secret.

Izzy: 1:00:37

Oh my gosh, I've never felt the significance of that before until you just said it like that, like yes, oh, this is like a massive thing to do, right, and she could have literally just like con and taken us everywhere like she's told him how much he despises him. I suppose he's I mean he's in love with this woman, right? So he's always going to see her, want to see the best in her and think that she would never do that which she wouldn't. Obviously she's not going to go in, tell those people this. I mean that to a detriment, right, because then we can run off with a sister. But, yes, this is so vulnerable, like so exposed.

Izzy: 1:01:10

I love that about all of Austin's because they have this vulnerability, that they're able to express themselves, and I just think that's so important. I just, yeah, I think it's really good. But also maybe it's coming from the stance of I'm in love with this woman and I know this guy is a bad guy. So, regardless if you're going to be with me or not, regardless if you're interested in me, I just want to warn you, I want to tell you the truth about this man that you're spending time with, because he's a bad egg, and that sense as well. I literally just be like look, I care about you, I don't want to see you get hurt. You need to distance yourself from this person, if you so please.

Caily: 1:01:50

Absolutely it's so. It's look, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought of it as much that way, but it's so true. It's looking out for her because he doesn't want Wickham to continue manipulating her. And Then I'm thinking too. It really confirms the truth for me, because when we think about how vulnerable it was for mr Darcy to put this information in writing, why else, why would he do that? Except for his wanting to wanting her to know what the truth is and to defend his honor? And yeah, I don't know, I think. I think it's very compelling. I.

Izzy: 1:02:28

Think that's why he doesn't say it in person, because easily in person, the heat of the argument, when all of this is going back and forth. If he was like, yeah, and also mr Wickham's a bad guy, friends, you've got no credibility, like we all know. You're a bad guy like, stop coming down on Wickham now. Which you don't say like this this needed to be outlined in a letter.

Izzy: 1:02:47

It needed time and it needed, like the whole background, like he's not gonna be like. Okay, I'm sorry, I know we just have this heated argument, but let's just sit down so I can give you like a backstory on Wickham. Here's Wickham's memoir. It just wouldn't work. Like it needed to be this kind of thought out letter that was like in in written format as well, like does it? I think that speaks the truth of it. Also, what you wouldn't write something down there was a lie. I don't think, like even with texting, right, you're not gonna text somebody something that was like, in the grand scheme of things, in the back of your mind. I feel like anything that you send to somebody, you've got to know that is a potential they could show that to somebody else, right, that that potential is there. So you're not gonna write something down about like somebody's friend. That is like Something that's like totally untrue, right?

Izzy: 1:03:34

You're not gonna type that in and so they can be like is their friend? Like this person said this and you've got evidence and all of that. You're not gonna do it right. That's something that you say in person and you could just be like I never said that if you know you're a bad person.

Izzy: 1:03:46

Where is the letter? It's evidence, right? It's physical evidence. We see that in persuasion where, like recently, we read persuasion, right, mrs Smith whacking out those letters from Mr Elton, it was evidence, evidence that he was a bad guy, you know, and that's what this is, as well as evidence.

Caily: 1:04:02

Yes it, oh my gosh, it is, it's. And when we were, when we were just talking about this too and talking about why he didn't originally Fight back and and clear the air on what really happened with mr Wickham in the moment not to get all therapist mode, but Anger is a secondary emotion to something more vulnerable, like anger tends to be protective, right. So he I Think he was really affected by hearing about mr Wickham, but that if that was sad, that was vulnerable to him, so it was probably a lot harder to even talk about it, right, like when something's vulnerable, your prefrontal cortex shuts off. And so he needed to outline it in a letter. Versus the anger where he's spewing out stuff about her family, all of the other stuff he was angry about, that was probably easier to to come out because anger is a shield, whereas the sadness, the fear, the worry for his sister that's a lot more vulnerable to process on the spot.

Izzy: 1:05:09

Yes, I love that because I just think as well. I feel like I when I reflect on moments like where I'm triggered or something like really upset and angers me. I always aim to choose peace and so the only way I can do that is like get into the present moment, like get into my body, just like you know, like who's that whole energy down? Yes, and I would have to do this as well, like I couldn't Do that in the heat of the moment. I don't think I would have had to remove myself in the situation and then, on reflection, go back to it.

Izzy: 1:05:37

I think that's quite common for Introverted people as well. Right, that they have to take the time they need to separate themselves so that they can process. I know a lot of people say to me like if you're in, if in your team, if you've got people who are introverted, like it's not fair to spring Like meetings on them and ask them to like come off and do that, because a lot of people they need time to process, they need to sit, reflect, write down their thoughts, then come to the meeting. Like some people prefer agendas. I know I'm like I like any agenda for the meeting and I can't just be like, you can't spring it to me. I feel like in the proposal, darcy was collecting the information he needed so that he could go back in process and then write out His thoughts when they were actually cohesive.

Caily: 1:06:11

I think too it must have been so raw because it wasn't just involving himself and himself and his dynamic with Elizabeth or a friend, mr Bingley, who's his same age and Everything. It's his 15 year old sister and you know, just looking at this she was 15 and the level of manipulation and the power dynamic there with Wickham Really isn't okay, given Wickham and Darcy are supposed to be the same age, right? So Wickham's 25. I guess he was a little bit younger, since it was, it happened earlier, but still that's a big age gap. And I don't know. The oldest child in me is coming out, of course, mr Darcy, particularly because he's not just the older brother but he's the parental figure to Georgiana. He feels so protective of her like a father, because his father's passed away, and so this is just. This just must be so close to the chest for him.

Izzy: 1:07:12

Yes, and also the responsibility he bears right also because you know he is looking after his sister. He's inherited the state of the estate at a young age. Like he's managing all of this quite young. You feel guilt as well that like you've let this guy come in and he's been able to like worm his way, wiggle his way In and do all of this and also the frustration you would feel. You're like you did this with my sister, someone who I love dearly, and now you're going after the woman I love, like Do it. You're like literally the bane of my life. Like what are you doing?

Caily: 1:07:44

Right, like you didn't even give me a chance at this girl, because before I got to get to know her, you just portrayed me in this horrible way. When you're the one who wronged me, it's true. I feel bad for him in this situation. Yeah.

Izzy: 1:08:00

I do. I kind of do as well. He was wrong with the Jane and Bingley situation, but I think his intentions came from a good place. I think he loves Bingley as a friend. He's so loyal, he's such Darcy is so loyal, right. He is really, really stands up for those people that he cares about and he has their back. You know, he really does, and I think it did come from a place of love. His actions obviously were not not so great, but I feel like, you know, he just redeemed himself later, doesn't he? But yeah, this was just like a whole world wound of like terrible nursing.

Izzy: 1:08:31

I think, in terms of the proposal, his biggest mistake is that he just didn't read Elizabeth, right? You know he's fallen in love with this woman and yet he has absolutely no idea of Her, really, you know, I mean, he sees her on a superficial level, but he's not got to know her on a deep level, and so, yeah, I think that is maybe the mistake and obviously we see him rectify this. Like when she's at Hembley and they spend more time like one-on-one chatting and everything. I think he got so caught up in his own thoughts, like I. I'm like in this inner turmoil of like. I really like this woman, but also I can't like if, for all these reasons, that he just didn't take the time to actually be like does she like me? Because that's equally important.

Caily: 1:09:12

Right. This is where we see so much personal growth and character development for from him, because a lot of people talk about him as Not innately being able to pick up on social cues and attend to other people, and we see this in the proposal. It literally says that Lizzie answers him with cold civility and he takes that as let me keep you know and Let me take this as encouragement. But I think it's not that he doesn't have the capability to attune. I think he was just so caught up in self absorption and in his own agenda, because we see later how he changes, like when he meets the gardeners, you know, ironically, he ends up loving them the most of Lizzie's connections. But when originally he, you know, looks down on them.

Caily: 1:10:03

But he attuned so much to what mr Gardner, like he goes, do you want to do you want to fish here? And he knows how to interact with people and he does attune to Lizzie really well too. Like, think about I mean I know Lizzie was very overtly upset here, but think about when Jane writes to Lizzie and Tells, tells Lizzie that Lydia has run off with Wickham, and it's Lizzie reads this as mr Darcy shows up and mr Darcy, right away, you know it's like what's wrong. Sit down, here's a glass of wine. He's very much trying to, he's very much able to read, read her, attend to her and take care of her emotionally, and so he doesn't have the capacity to do that. I think he just really needed to be challenged and to get outside of himself and his experience.

Izzy: 1:10:58

Also, like I feel like, if we think of it in the stance that mr Darcy's to change is potential, I would say you know from the life experience that he's gone through, from the burdens that he holds, so maybe he has put up more of a wall as life's gone on, you know, and he's become like this more hardened person who isn't quite as empathetic and is attuned to social situations, and then that that's kind of broken down throughout the rest of the novel. Or Alternatively, you could I think you could argue that, because I don't believe one second. Men change for women. Men Do not change for women. I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm sorry if I offend you with the don't. I Would say if anything changes him, it's, it's Lizzie's comments saying that he didn't behave in a gentleman manner and it was a self-reflection of going how do I want to show up in the world From this point on. He doesn't go on any assumption that Lizzie's gonna marry him again.

Izzy: 1:11:44

You know, like he isn't in that area. The only reason he tries again is because Lizzie tells Lady Catherine to you know, f off. So that's the only reason like he goes again. Because all of his actions aren't for Elizabeth essentially like they are. But I think most of it is to check his own character, because he's like how do I want to show up into the, into the world, in like I think he does, like he does do the Lizzie's, the liddiest stuff. I'm not saying that they aren't for Elizabeth, they are. I do think it is more about how he shows up and wants to be a gentleman, wants to be perceived as a gentleman. He's not like I want Lizzie to marry me, so I'm gonna change X, y instead. So then the woman, I'm the man that she wants, I'm her dream man. I don't think he does it. From that perspective. I think it's that he wants to be a gentleman. He wants to be someone who's worthy of Elizabeth.

Caily: 1:12:27

Yeah, she gives him. She gives him the wake-up call, right Like he realizes he's not being perceived as a gentleman and that's fundamentally how, how he wants to be and how he shows up in the world. So he, he does it for himself, but he gets the wake-up call from her that he desperately needs, because who knows if anyone else would have been as honest with him about it.

Izzy: 1:12:53

No one. I kind of think Bingley's kind of honest with him, but not in the same way like I feel like I'm being like poep, poep's fun, and I think that's why he keeps being around, because I think, out of everyone else, bingley is probably the only other person that checks in. But are we? Are we good to wrap this one up here? We, we think you said everything that you want to say.

Caily: 1:13:10

I think so. Yeah, I think we, I think we covered it.

Izzy: 1:13:14

Oh my gosh. Okay, great, so we will. We'll wrap this one up here, but if you enjoyed this like scene analysis, kind of going into a little bit more detail and like shorter sections of the book, let us know, because we'd be more than happy to do this on like other sections of the book. I think this is quite fun. It's something nice to do alongside the character studies, you know, because obviously they focus on a specific person, but there's always so many characters right. So if we can do scene analysis also, characters like Darcy Makes me a little bit nervous to character analysis of him. So I feel like easing in with scene analysis will be a good way for me to build up, because, honestly, I'm so terrified to do one of Darcy, then have entirely different Ideas the day after, which happens to me a lot on all the other ones. But I feel like with certain characters, I, I want to, yeah, I want to come to it with my thoughts kind of gathered, so yeah.

Caily: 1:14:03

I think that's so fair. I think for Main characters there's so much content and particularly with Darcy, there's so much hypocrisy, highs and lows. There's such a variety of behavior to analyze. It can be daunting to do a character study of the of the main characters. But yeah, no, I like this scene analysis. That's a good way to ease our way in.

Izzy: 1:14:28

We'll do all the scenes. So what does this mean? What does this mean for Darcy? Oh my gosh. Yeah, like a marathon episode really just here from like morning. Oh my gosh, so funny. But yeah, we would. It was fun, right, and we always love to hear your thoughts. So you can find me on Instagram. I want the Austin Join the patreon book club because me and Kaylee are both in that, obviously, like I started a book club, but Kaylee's there also. You know we love to chitchat over there. It's so far we've read persuasion, pride and prejudice, love and friendship. So, yeah, definitely join, if you fancy that. I will leave the link below and that's everything from us today and we will see you in another episode.

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