Welcome to the forth episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy, and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Georgia from @thegeeword. In this episode, we discuss the character of Charlotte Lucas from Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. Charlotte is a complex secondary character who has a very pragmatic view on relationship, she provides a differing approach to marriage to Elizabeth. Despite not marrying for love, we will discuss how Charlotte is strong, resourceful and is ready to take action when it matters most.
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Transcript of the episode:
zzy 0:17
Hi, Janeites Welcome to today's episode, which is actually the fourth episode of the what the Austen podcast. I'm joined by Georgia from @thegeeword. So hi, Georgia. It's great to have you with me.
Georgia 0:27
Hi, Izzy, how you doing?
Izzy 0:29
I'm not too bad, not too bad at all. And so it'll be great to find out kind of like how you got into Austen and to hear a little bit about your blog and your Instagram account.
Georgia 0:39
I've got a blog page on Instagram called the G word. And I got into Austen, all all down to my mum, really my mum introduced me to my first Austen text, which was Pride and Prejudice. And that was at the age of 12. I will say, I watched the I will admit, I did watch the film before I read the book. I no shock horror, even to myself now. And But no, it was. It's the whole world of Austen and the use of language and how the strong protagonist in Pride and Prejudice, of course, which we will talk about. And for Charlotte Lucas as well. That is how I got hooked in on Austen and my life has been changed since So yeah, that's me.
Izzy 1:24
No, I love that. It's so great. I love hearing like what people like what was their original in to Austen, was it the book? Was it a film, was it any adaptation? And so that's really great. I love that so on today's episode, we'll be discussing Charlotte Lucas from Pride and Prejudice. And despite being a secondary character, she has a pretty memorable storyline, I'd say anyway, it starts with Mr. and ends with Collins.
Georgia 1:51
Yes. What what a character, let's say out of all the Austen books, he stands out like a sore thumb, doesn't he?
Izzy 2:00
Absolutly. I've kind of split split some ideas up, as you know, and I thought where we could probably start is her opinions on marriage before she's actually married. So I have a quote here, which I think really stands out. And this is about Charlotte. Marriage has always been her object. And I think that really speaks to Charlotte's character, because I put two points down that I think she's both calculated and practical. And because she's got such a pragmatic view on marriage, so yeah, is there any kind of like main words that stick out for you? And then we can kind of discuss them individually?
Georgia 2:34
Yeah, I mean, just instantly looking from that quote, like what you just said, and really, you can attribute it to Charlotte so much. I think when you compare her to Elizabeth, I think they're both such strong characters. But I think for Charlotte, it's always been this set that she that she has to marry and she can't afford to wait, I think, what is her situation compared to Elizabeth's? Marriage is what she needs, but I don't think she conforms to how like how other women in the Gentry class with a typical marriage of convenience. I think she's very grounded compared when you compare her to Jane. Or if you compare, especially to Lydia, Lydia Bennett. I think Charlotte realises the seriousness of his situation compared to other women. That she interacts with.
Izzy 3:25
Right? Yeah, I think I mean, I think he definitely has the most sympathetic look on Charlotte than I do. Not that I think she's a bad person or a bad character. But um, yeah, I think like I when I say terms, like calculated, I don't mean that in the harshest sense. I mean it in, like, for instance, the scene at the ball when she's chatting with Elizabeth, and Jane is with Mr. Bingley, and she makes it clear that she thinks it's important that Jane should secure him before love, like love is a secondary thought for her. She's literally just like, she needs to secure him as a husband, then she can worry about falling in love with him after and in what's so funny about that. Yeah. Elizabeth, that Elizabeth even think she's joking, because her thoughts are, like, so different to shock. She's like, Oh, you never act that way yourself. But the truth is, that is Charlotte's true feelings on the matter, isn't it?
Georgia 4:21
No, it is. And I think, I think in that moment, when she sees Jane and Mr. Bingley, it's sense that she has her own worries. And she's, I think she's putting them on to other people. Especially. Because I mean with Jane is quite a reserved character, as from what you see in the novel. She doesn't outwardly go up to people, without people to Mr. Bingley, saying I love you. I love you. Oh, really over the top compared to her sister, Lydia. I think what it is for Charlotte, it's she's so worried about it herself, that she's expressing her concerns on to others, and yeah, I know that scene is classic though because she has no idea and and Elizabeth is just joking alongside and she's like, No, I'm being completely serious.
Izzy 5:12
Absolutely. And I feel like that only sinks in later in the book around chapter 22. And that you see that there's actually a line that says, When she's trying to kind of capture Mr. Collins as a husband now that she knows that he's after a wife is the book actually states, 'Such was Miss Lucas's scheme' like that he actually calls it a scheme like that she's actually out to catch a husband.
Georgia 5:39
This I think scheme I think it all depends on the perspective of how we are now I think, if you were to say, if you were to transport, Pride and Prejudice to today's climate, if you say, such as Miss Lucas's scheme, you'd be like, Oh, she's a bit of a, I don't know, gold digger, or something. Oh, she's a bit, she needs to calm down. But I think that she's I think she's just so worried, and especially at the time where marriages, marriages of convenience, were just the norm. And you've got Elizabeth who is not afraid she knows the threat. She knows that her dad is going to die soon. But she's she's not worried. And I think I think when you look at Charlotte, you do have to, you don't have to, but I sympathize with her situation, because I think such as Miss. Lucas's scheme, I think it scheme in the sense that she's just so determined to make sure that she's safe. She might be a bit annoying because of that, don't get me wrong, she probably is a bit annoying to be around. Because of that.
Izzy 6:39
I was gonna say like, because I think I take like a really different view on it. Because it's literally a couple of lines. After that. It's the scene where she's looking out the window, she sees Mr. Collins walking down the path. And she purposely goes out to accidentally, quote unquote, meet him in the path. And that's actually when he ends up proposing to her. But it's like, she like makes these things happen, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing, like you said with the context of the time. You are in need of a husband if you're in her position, so I don't think she's like malicious or and I definitely wouldn't consider a gold digger. But I think she's definitely practical and calculated in the way that she goes about this, that she is not getting caught up on love. Like, I think that she actually says, I'm not a romantic, you know, like, she's very clear. She's like, love is not my priority. My priority is security. If I fall in love, then that's just an added bonus, but it's not what I'm looking for.
Georgia 7:37
Yeah. And that's that was with most marriages at the time, wasn't it? Really, it was just that sense of security. I mean, that is, is when you put them two quotes together. From what you just said, how she accidentally bumps into him then. Then it's like, oh, look, they're engaged. I mean, she is kind of in the background. scheming doesn't she and her situation, but I think I think she I think she's just just so worried. Right? I think, I think it's just her sense of its distance didn't see her completely, that she's just like, I need to find someone. Oh, look, Elizabeth is rejected Collins even though he's a complete moron. Let's go for that. It's just like, okay, that one's not working. Uh huh. There's a free bird. I'll go after that one kind of thing. So yeah, bless her.
Izzy 8:33
the opportunity arises and she takes it in. Elizabeth doesn't take the opportunity. Obviously, she strives for love. That's what she always says is her main priority. But we can't, like, push all that aside for the fact that she's seen the opportunities that she knows what she wants, and she's going to go and go go and get it. You know, she's probably quite a strong character in that sense. She doesn't. Like I mean, to go in, get engaged to someone who's literally just proposed, your best friend in itself is quite, ballsy.
Georgia 9:05
A bit ballsy. Yeah. Just not even to be like, Oh, are you okay? She's just like, see? Yeah, that one's free. No hanging around for Charlotte.
Izzy 9:21
No, absolutely not. But I think he makes such a good point that it's so easy to compare Charlotte and Elizabeth and I think it is set up in the novel to do that. And to see their differences. I think more too big Elizabeth up, but I think if you take it look at it the other way, Elizabeth in a very different situation to Charlotte in the sense that Elizabeth is 20. So, you know, I mean, the age difference makes a significant point because with context of the time as you well know. The term Spencer an old maid, like I actually, those terms themselves are actually coined In the 18th century, which just shows you how powerful they must have been at the time tlike if a term comes out nowadays, you know, I mean, if it's used, it's so much more powerful, which that was the term of the time.
Georgia 10:13
yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, I've got I've got a quote here, it says, I'll read it first. It says so in Charlotte society, if a woman was seen to be married by a certain age, she was not worthy of getting a husband in all her life. And that is from Salma Hayek if I'm saying that right, which is Charlotte Lucas's practical approach to marriage. And I think, from what you just said, it's the age difference. So Lizzie, you said is 20 and Charlotte's 27? Isn't she? So? Yeah, she, it's that sense of she probably has about a year, two years maybe. And then she has to and then she's gonna be doomed. So is that real, real sense of urgency when you compare her to Elizabeth, who was so relaxed and so going with it and turn and so headstrong that she's turning away suitors in the sense that she's just not interested? So yeah, definitely.
Izzy 11:13
Dalek, like you said, has that urgency that Elizabeth doesn't have? And I think although we can be like, Oh, yeah, Elizabeth definitely turned down Mr. Collins, because none of us like him. It's like, yeah, Elizabeth, our heroine, she's younger, Charlotte is older and probably represents, like, the realities of the time, there was probably more Charlottes Yeah, was Elizabeths.
Georgia 11:34
And I think Austen kind of shows that. I mean, it is definitely. And I think Austen shows that there is the possibility to have an have a relationship like Elizabeth has with Darcy. But I think she shows that this is still the reality that women like Charlotte had to accept their circumstance and make the best situation possible out of it. And it's sad to see really because of how admirable Charlotte is, for me, personally, I think she could have anyone she wants. But I think what makes her so admirable and it's what Elizabeth comes to understand, is that she's she, Charlotte shapes marriage to suit her. I don't think she bends to the patriarchal standards of the time of how a woman should be this and she should shouldn't have an independent mind. I think Charlotte still retains that in her marriage, which I think doesn't mean that marriage constraints her I think she's still quite liberated in it mentally.
Izzy 12:40
That's really interesting, though. I totally, I totally get where you're coming from. And also her. The alternative is pretty dire. Like, you only have to look at characters like Miss Bates from enter, which I think makes a really good point that there's a huge difference between remaining single and being a rich heiress. than being a poor woman who was was single. And you know what I mean and even Charlotte says like, she was a burden to her family like that alone is such a horrible feeling. And should her die is like that. Should a father die? Yeah. I mean, when we see that sense and sensibility with the Dashwoods. Like their father dies, they end up in a cottage like they have to downsize dramatically.
Georgia 13:24
Is that is the emphasis behind that word burden. Today is, is not really seen. I mean, for me, personally, I'm hoping I'm not a burden to my parents, who knows? Who knows, we'll find out. But it's that sense of that word burden. I think it's so important for Charlotte's context because she really has no other choice. Otherwise she's gonna end up as as a spinster and she's going to be pushed out onto the fringes of society. And I think it's it's truly awful, awful that that is how women were treated. That past a certain age. You weren't seen as pleasing to the male eye, you were, you were seen as old and she's only 27.
Izzy 14:14
I know. It's crazy. I literally saw this written it said that. At the time, women were no longer considered victims after they reached a certain age that they were actually to blame for not being able to catch her husband like it was like it was your fault. You weren't able to attract somebody in Yeah, even the society and Pride and Prejudice like they, they already start to consider Charlotte's a spinster, like, even Mrs. Bennett says at one time, like Oh, she's basically just a spinster now. So it's Yeah, I mean, she's already she's got the people around her already saying that. So that's an added pressure. Then on top of that, she feels a burden to our parents. I mean, you can kind of understand why when someone came along, she was like, I need to take this.
Georgia 14:52
Yeah. Even if he is a complete pain in the arse.
Izzy 14:55
Yeah, right. Numpty or not let's go for it.
Georgia 14:58
But then you contract Charlotte's situation to Lydia Bennett? Who I think if I've got this right, girls could, I think from the age of 12, they could marry but they still needed a licence to marry. If I've got that correct, and I think you've got Lydia who's completely away with the fairies, let's be honest, she's not there for her age. She's 15 years old. And next thing you know, she marries Mr. Wickham. She's not aware of her situation. She has no idea what his true character is like. And it's only really revealed to Elizabeth once she's told the truth from Mr. Darcy. And it's too late by then. But you've got Lydia and you've got Charlotte. You've got Charlotte who understands her situation. She has to marry and you got Lydia who was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so taken away the Scarlet coat a military man, he'll protect me. The stereotypes that come attached, and she's just not there. Her blindness just failed her completely. Right.
Izzy 16:07
Like on a scale Lydia's like one end and Charlotte's the other. Elizabeth probably falls somewhere in the middle. But yeah. Even then, like the Bennett situation is pretty bleak. It's probably worse than Charlotte's families, to be perfectly honest with you. And but yeah, it's it's strange how pragmatic Charlotte is compared to like the Bennet sisters. Like you have people like Lydia in the family who are completely oblivious to the situation. Elizabeth is aware of it, but then is quick to judge Charlotte for her choice and think she's a fool. Yeah. Like, do you know, I mean, it's quite strange. Yeah. When the reality is I think that's aged. I think that's the difference in age. I don't think she's at the point where it's urgent enough for her to fully comprehend her situation.
Georgia 16:51
No, definitely. I think for Elizabeth, I think when she hears Charlotte is engaged to be married to Mr. Collins. I think she believes that. It's, it's kind of I think, personally rude how she kind of pushes her aside. And she's like, how, how can you do this to yourself? But then you've got to think, well, Elizabeth, don't you know the situation that you're in? You've got your father who's going to die soon. And you have this looming threat over you. And you seem like you don't you have no idea. And Charlotte, I think she makes marriage work for herself, because she makes it. She's still independent. And I think Elizabeth believes that she's sacrificing that when she's not, I think she sees it such as a marriage, I've got to attain my independent mind, I've got to be free in my mind, but also free in my body, I can do whatever I want. I can still go wherever I want. And I think as soon as she has that Charlotte's engaged. She's like, I thought you believed in the same principles. And she does. But yeah, again, it's that whole misunderstanding of the situation that she's in. And definitely, so yeah.
Izzy 18:01
I absolutely get that Elizabeth is extremely harsh. And at one point, I think, and that she's just kind of recalling her thoughts. And she says, like, it's the most humiliating picture. Like, I mean, that's brutal. And like I've wrote a lot about this in the past that in the narrative is so close to Elizabeth thoughts that the narrative itself almost rejects Charlotte like, it seems to brush her aside, like Charlotte took a pragmatic approach. This is a romantic novels, so Charlotte's kind of pushed, pushed to one side after that, it's like, Okay, we've got rid of the reality side of things. Now, let's look at the fantasy side. So obviously, people marrying above their station wasn't was like did happen. It's not like, unbelievable. But the point is, like I said, Before, there has to be more Charlotte's and there was Elizabeth. No, definitely. Elizabeth was pretty harsh. And Mr. Bennet really harsh as well. You called her a fool at one point.
Georgia 18:54
When I first read Pride and Prejudice, and I saw that I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like stand down. I think that's a step too far. To call her a fool. Even though she's looked at her situation, rationally. She's married someone. She's actually understanding what she's doing compared to your daughter later on with Lydia. Like, I don't think he has any right to call her that really?
Izzy 19:18
Right. Absolutely not. And I think we're tying this to Bennet does reflect on his like, thoughts about these things. But as soon as Elizabeth because at the end, although she doesn't necessarily still fully accept it. I think she's because she learns to understand her situation. And she actually says, like, all in all, it's probably a good match. So I appreciate that. They're obviously I mean, they're never they're never as close again, which is interesting. I think that Elizabeth was too convinced that Charlotte's views on things were like hers. And yeah, I think the fact that they differed in what they're willing to marry for kind of Put a bit of a damper on their relationship. And then yeah, I think how easily Charlotte fit into her life, the fact that she has her own house now. And she's got a pretty good standing in society because Mr. Collins, like, in terms of societal standing isn't about in a bad position. I mean, being a rectors wife is actually okay. And he's obviously got close connections with Lady Catherine. So, um, yeah, I mean, it's not in the grand scheme. Obviously, Mr. Collins is a bad match. But Mr. Collins, in terms of him in a broad sense isn't a bad match.
Georgia 20:36
Yeah. He might be weird with his potatoes. But you know what? We just gotta except it
Izzy 20:42
He'll always compliment your potatoes.
Georgia 20:48
He'll always be a harsh critic. Charlotte, you got to make sure you get your potatoes. Right. Otherwise, you're a deep water.
Izzy 20:56
I think we should probably like go over more about this and the independence like you were saying. And I think she does have a lot of independence, but the sense that she makes him stay in the garden so often.
Georgia 21:08
Yes. I mean, it's the quote from the book when it's so Elizabeth goes to see Charlotte after she's married Mr. Collins, and Elizabeth states, when Mr. Collins could be forgotten. There was a there was really a great air of comfort throughout. And by the Charlotte evident enjoyment of it, Elizabeth, suppose he must be often forgotten. So she's shaped it. She's just been like, yeah, I this is my space, you'll stay outside. And she's, she shapes it to see what she needs. And I think Austen shows that. I think marriage doesn't have to be a woman goes in the home. And she has to be this and doing that. And sewing this and making this and making the house look nice. I think she shows that a woman when she's in the home, she shapes it to suit what she needs. And Charlotte is like, what I need is for him to be away from where I am.
Izzy 22:04
Right? For him to be away. And for me to run my own home. Like, I think there such as, like a strength there, which I really appreciate it. Because like I said, I mean, I'm not always that sympathetic to Charlotte. And I don't know if that's just maybe I'm too much of a romantic to fully comprehend Charlottes situation and appreciate her as a character. But I do think she makes it her own. And she just she's like, maybe this isn't the best situation. But I'm going to make it a good situation for me, which I think that's worth appreciating.
Definitely, but I think I can completely agree with you because I didn't really understand Charlotte's situation until I've spent a good part of my dissertation analyzing Charlotte situation. Because before you read it, and you really only focus on Elizabeth, Mr. Darcy and Jane and Mr. Bingley, and anything else that happens in between is like, Oh, wow. And then Okay, back to Elizabeth. Now back to this. But it wasn't until you understand the context of Charlotte situation and you actually analyze who she is, like the major convenience that we were talking about, and that the threat behind being a spinster and being that burden and that you actually see, okay, she's actually such an important character because and then she kind of pushed aside but she's important because she shows that marriage, marriage had to had to be a woman's path, but it didn't have to be the end of it. It didn't have to be marriage, and then you settle it was marriage and then you shape it to shape it to your life. And you keep living it I guess.
And also we've got to bear in mind Charlotte situation as it is when the novel ends is very different than what is going to be in the future because Mr. Collins is going to inherit Longhorn which is like massively. And I think Mrs Bennet makes a bit of a snide comments about it she's like the Lucas's, they're all out for what they can get. Like she thinks that Charlotte is a gold digger. It's like she goes from one thing, it's like Charlottes going to be expensive. And then when Charlotte actually goes and finds a husband, next thing, you know, she's a gold digger. Your mind?
Georgia 24:18
Exactly. I mean, I like Mrs. Bennett can talk she's completely away with the fairies. Let's be honest. calling people gold diggers and whatever. And and actually, you're like, look at your youngest child. But anyway, moving on.
Izzy 24:33
She's so quick to judge. It's hilarious. And an interesting point to make is that Austen herself was in a very similar position, but actually didn't. She took more of Elizabeth approach, because she was proposed to you by Harris. And she accepted only to refuse in the next morning. I could totally relate to that. I'd sleep on it and I'd be like, oh, Lord, no, what am I doing.
I'm such a worry. I'd be like yes and happy like wait no. Oh, God. I don't know. It's like, I'll be like, mum is this a good thing I should do I'm not sure? Mum?
I know I'm such an over-thinker. wake up the next day. And I'm like, oh, and so like a hot sweat. Like,
Georgia 25:12
Either that I be like? Yeah, I mean, only if you want to. I mean, I don't want to pressure you or anything only if you're up to it. L
Izzy 25:21
I'll leave it in your court.
Georgia 25:23
Yeah. Please don't let me make a decision. I've got no idea.
Izzy 25:29
Say funny. So, my dissertation is really different in the sense that
Georgia 25:38
Your dissertation is amazing.
Izzy 25:39
Thank you, And I think and like I was saying before, how the narrative kind of pushes her aside, Charlotte is pivotal for Elizabeth to get what she wants. It's that Charlotte is shows the alternative to marrying for love. Like she shows an alternative which is marrying for money. Maybe it wasn't callous like that. Maybe it wasn't she's not like a gold digger, but she does marry for self preservation. And in doing that, you know, I mean, it shows a marked contrast to Elizabeth marrying for love loves got to succeed. So money needs to be pushed aside, the person that chooses money needs to be pushed out to the narrative for the love to kind of be the main outcome. And then that's Bingley Jane. Elizabeth and Darcy. So I think she's pivotal for to push the Marriage Plot forward. And why I think she's such a she's such an important character. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you want to add anything?
Georgia 26:34
Um, well, let's face it. If Elizabeth didn't go to see Charlotte, then she wouldn't have bumped into Mr. Darcy, if I got that correct. if my memory serves me, right. So if you hadn't actually made a decision to go see her because like we said earlier, there's actually that moment of time when they don't speak to each other. And there's and you don't actually hear from Charlotte for a while, if Elizabeth didn't made that decision to go see her, then that relationship with Mr. Darcy, then Elizabeth future could have been unknown, it could have been a completely different path. But no, I completely understand about. I completely agree even on what you said about money and how I think Austen shows what I say in my dissertation. Is that is it often shows how marriage was seen more of the economic side, it was all to do with the money. And love was kind of pushed to the back burner. And I think that is shown in Charlotte's relationship. But I also think Austen shows that. Yes, money still plays a role in it. But it shouldn't be the pivotal. It shouldn't be at the forefront of that union. I think love it's still important. Definitely so, No, I agree.
Izzy 27:47
Yeah, no, absolutely. That's so true. You're gonna chat about some of like the adaptations and how they like portray Charlotte. I think they do the book justice, like her character, really comes down to the vocations I think.
Georgia 28:00
I will have to admit, I have only watched the I am meaning to watch the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice.
Izzy 28:07
You've not watched the Collin Firth one?
Georgia 28:10
I'm so sorry. I've watched that moment in the lake. My mum was like, give me to watch it when I like. So I have I know, shock horror. I'm so sorry. janeites I'm so sorry. But I that is something I mean, it's what I have only watched the Keira Knightley version of Pride and Prejudice because I'm going to call out my dad here. He's obsessed with Keira Knightley. So we watched that a lot. It's one of my dads favorite films.
Izzy 28:15
Is it actually? That's the funniest thing ever. That's brilliant.
Georgia 28:49
So that's Yeah, that's how I watched it. I think the adaptation of Charlotte from what I've seen, only from that version. I think it's very truthful to how she's seen in the book, especially especially that moment when she excepts, Mr. Collins proposal, and it's when she says something along the lines of she says to Elizabeth, don't you dare judge me, Lizzie?
Izzy 29:16
Yeah. When Elizabeth on the swing, and she goes over to a Yeah, I think Elizabeth is quite judgmental as a character anyway, and she's quick to judge people. So I think I think like I said before, is but it was probably a shock to Elizabeth that Charlotte did that because she was so convinced that they were on the same page. But I think Charlotte really stands around that she's like, you know, don't judge me for this decision. Because we're, although, in time we'll be in the same situation. At the moment. I'm far more advanced and than you are, and I need to be realistic and choose what's best for me.
Georgia 29:53
Yeah, definitely. I think that moment shows that Elizabeth up until that time, she has been judging Mr. Da See, she's she's judging everything around her. She's judging her mother quite a lot of the time. And I think it shows that Charlotte like, Yes, they are thick as thieves most of time her and Elizabeth, but that moment, she's like, Don't you dare judge me. You have no right to judge me? Because she doesn't, because she doesn't know her situation. Yes, they are in similar situations, but she's not in Charlotte shoes. And I think that moment really shows Charlotte to you really get on the side with Charlotte personally for me there because she doesn't understand. And I think she needs to be put back on the right path. And I think Charlotte does that to her, instead of getting the high up into the clouds. So yeah, definitely.
Izzy 30:43
Right. And I think Charlotte starts the catalyst for Elizabeth to have to reconsider who she is judged. Up until till this point, because they it's it's from that point, she has to reconsider judging Charlotte. Then she gets the letter from Darcy realizes that she completely misjudged him. And Wickham was actually the villain of the story. Do you know I mean, those stars, the castles, but she's actually like, maybe I was completely misjudged people.
Georgia 31:11
Yeah, yeah. And exactly. I think it's the moment in the film when she has the letter. And then I think Charlotte, then walks in. Oh, yeah. And she's just like, is everything okay? Mr. Darcy's just left. But I just love how she walks in. And Elizabeth's just there reading the letter. And she's like, Oh, God, like I've really messed up here. Like, I'm like, all of this truth is spilling out over this letter and that letter is so significant to Elizabeth and Darcy. And Charlotte just walks in. And she's like, is everything all right. She's like, do we need a cup of tea?
Izzy 31:50
I feel like symbolically that also just shows how Charlotte does push the storyline forward. Like she's always just kind of there and she helps things move to the path that they need to be on. Like you said, it's like Mr. Darcy first proposal is when she's staying with Charlotte and Mr. Collins. So like loads of really important moments happen when she's visiting them.
Georgia 32:14
As soon as it has been taken out of the home. I think she's so comfortable in the environment she's in and she stays with Charlotte, and its new environment. And even though she's both Charlotte, so she has like that family tether. But it's certainly where all this truth is revealed. I think it's I think Austen shows the importance of Lizzie not being at home when this truth is revealed. It could have easily been done at Lamborn. But I think you would have had, as you see later and Lady Catherine comes around is the whole family. Everyone's like mashing together and it all gets really chaotic. I think it kind of shows Lizzie's vulnerability by taking her out of the setting and, and in all this truth to hit her. She then goes back home with a new perspective. And I think that's crucial to her journey.
Izzy 33:07
Oh my gosh. And then just thinking about that I just had another thought actually is the novel starts with Charlotte. Even though Charlotte's at home. She's in a state of like confusion, doesn't feel secure. It's all like that. And then it flips in Elizabeth is like that once Charlotte secure in her home, runs her own house. And she's very confident at that point. Elizabeth state is like put into a state of turmoil and confusion. And she's like having to reevaluate everything. So it's so interesting how their roles kind of flip because Charlotte, Elizabeth very much like in her zone, when they're longfawn, and yeah, they're going to balls around there when they go to Netherfield, etc. And I think you definitely see her vulnerability, like when she's staying with Mr. Collins and Charlotte, like when she goes to like Lady Catherine's and stuff like she's is probably the most awkward times for Elizabeth, like when they make her play piano and all of that, but Charlotte is just like steadfast, just, you know, I mean, doing her own thing in every respective member of that society.
Georgia 34:11
If anything, it's a complete switch from how it was previously, because Charlotte was the one who's always nervous and she has that worry and everything said previously. And then then from the Lady Catherine, she's just there. She's content and she's obviously she's a bit worried for Elizabeth. She's like, all rushes and have to play with piano, but she's also like, I don't have that pressure anymore. Because I've got that comfort. And then Lizzie's just there, like, I can't play the piano.
Izzy 34:43
That is so true.
Georgia 34:45
I take the situation. Oh, gosh, I honestly read in that moment in the book. I don't think I was like this. I was like, oh my gosh.
Izzy 34:56
That is the beauty of being married though when you're married, you need to worry about that kind of thing. No Nobody's gonna press you to do anything. You're you're your own mistress at that point.
And then like, and then she's bless her Lizzie's trying so hard to play the bloody piano. And then like Mr. Darcy comes over and everyone leaping over. Yeah. And I just went, I'm sorry, can you just leave me alone? Because I'm really trying to play here. And it's just like Lady Catherine's just right there. Like, can you help me out here? Just leave me alone just for once?
Oh my gosh, and I'd just want to die and Lady Catherine going on about how how important music is to her how she'd be like professions if she'd like learn and I'd be like, Oh, my God, I'm fine inside as I'm just like, stumbling around trying to play the worst thing of me like you want me to play now after you've just said all of that. Okay, should we wrap up with some final thoughts then? So I'd say that Charlotte is in a situation is understood, but not accepted by the novel. But I think in the realities of Regency England, it would have been a much more common scenario and even encouraged. So I feel like people probably could have related more to Charlotte. She was the norm Elizabeth was the fantasy, I'd say. Yeah. And I think even Elizabeth, like I said, before, comes to understand Charlotte, Charlotte's choice. And I feel like Charlotte is such a strong character. It's actually so interesting to talk this through with you, because talking it through is made me appreciate more of her strength. And she really does make it our own, doesn't she and I love that Actually,
Georgia 36:36
she does, I think it could have been very easy for Austen to portray Charlotte's situation as a matter of convenience. And then she disappears, I think it could have been, but she shows that. I think I think she shows with both Charlotte and, and obviously with Elizabeth, that it was possible to make marriage your own in the sense that it didn't have to be what society dictated. Once you were married. Obviously, you still had to conform to it, especially with what Charlotte being married Mr. Collins, she still had to like when they go out in public be that person for him. I think that still shows that you make marriage Suit yourself. And I also think it shows that marriage doesn't, doesn't need you to sacrifice your independence. Yes, you might be constrained physically within the home setting. But Charlotte's independent mind doesn't know. You still have that freedom of mind. And I think that is then reinforced with us. But when she sees Charlotte, I think Elizabeth up until then thinks that if you if you marry, you lose that self and that independence. And she sees Charlotte and she understands that marriage doesn't have to be such a constricting position. And that changes her for the better, I think.
Izzy 37:58
Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Yeah, I totally agree as well. So it's been great to like talk this out thought, I love doing these episodes, because it's so fun to just like talk about specific character or topical part of the book, etc. And it's really you know, exactly, yeah, delve into it's great.
Georgia 38:16
And yeah, it's such a fun time. So thank you for having me.
Izzy 38:21
So, where can people find you then just say that they know.
Georgia 38:25
Yeah, so I'm, I am mostly on Instagram. At the G word is my page. I'm also on Facebook with the same username. And I also have a website with my blog on which is on my Instagram page, there's a link tree link, which is probably the easiest way to find it. Instead of giving the whole link address over a podcast recording.
Izzy 38:49
Absolutely.
Georgia 38:51
No, my Instagram is probably the best place to go. For all fun content and my life.
Izzy 38:57
I'll add kind of all your links on my website underneath like this podcasts will be so that people can you just use those links as well and click and find you easily. So that's really great. And but yeah, we'll wrap it up there.
Georgia 39:13
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.