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Episode 39: The Mary Crawford Effect with Charlie @thebookboy

In this episode I'm joined by Charlie @thebookboy to discuss Jane Austen's Mary Crawford from Mansfield Park. Described by some as the real heroine of Mansfield Park, she is a character who divides the community. embodying everything Austen tells us is good such as being outspoken and lively, Mary isn't so dissimilar than Lizzy Bennet and yet she is a polarising character and is placed in binary opposition to the heroine Fanny Price. This is a fun and interesting conversation to explore the character of Mary from two Mary sympathisers. Thanks again to our sponsor Haus of Bennet: Use code whatthediscount at the checkout for 15% off! and you will also be supporting the Podcast 🤍

This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way.

We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it!

Please follow and subscribe to keep up with all the upcoming episodes. Where can you find Charlie? Instagram: @thebookboy Podcast episode: Episode 11: Who is the wealthiest Jane Austen hero? with Charlie from @thebookboy


Izzy (00:00.640)

irritates me but i can't turn that off so i'm always like i don't want to can you imagine if i was like it we start recording that and then i was silent for five seconds like i want ye like with them

Charles Edwards Freshwater (00:01.937)

oh yeah

Charles Edwards Freshwater (00:10.057)

yeah yeah

Izzy (00:13.060)

how are things by the way i never asked you have you finished your job now

Charles Edwards Freshwater (00:17.537)

yes yes i finished on friday so this is my week off between jobs which is nice but yeah today is not not be ideal but is what it is

Izzy (00:29.740)

and you start your new job next monday

Charles Edwards Freshwater (00:32.797)

yeah so on the twenty seventh i start which is day after my birthday so i think its cross it will be good but we'll see yeah

Izzy (00:38.180)

oh a fresh start though and you i guess it's the main thing of being out of a job that you won't enjoy in i suppose

Charles Edwards Freshwater (00:46.577)

yeah it's a really good change like it will be a new challenge and just a good a good place to be i think i just needed something different so it will be a good good start

Izzy (00:56.640)

yeah yeah i think that's fair enough you know it's i was there at one point like genuinely like before i started working for myself my job was just hellish like i had the worst boss ever she was like such a tyrant and so it was like such a weight off my shoulders when i knew i was leaving i was just like my god may be free soon it's fine

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:07.697)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10.937)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:15.457)

yeah now sam i gave him my notice and i was just like i can breathe finally

Izzy (01:21.900)

because when you were like in it and there's like no way out you're just like every day is painful and you're just yeah i used to have the worst like i used have a pit in my stomach all the time and it was just hellish

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:25.617)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:32.517)

yeah it's just not healthy is it you're spending so much time just feeling miserable it's ot a good idea so now

Izzy (01:39.620)

no exactly and then you spend a weekend worrying about going back to work which is just never ideal you just don't want don't want five are you okay the today's not being great by you are you okay

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:43.477)

m m

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:46.957)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:50.357)

yeah i'm fine it's just been so like we had all of our carpets taken up and yeah it's just i just yea my house just looks like a bomb site and i hate it and now we're gonna have to re carp it all because we thought we were going to polish it and sort of the floor boards and stuff but a load of them are just not good enough and so it's either rebuild the whole floor or just carpet over it again yeah

Izzy (02:17.980)

oh no that's the your pains you pulled them all up thinking the floor was going to be like real nice and you're goin t be able to use it it's just not panned out that way oh jesus no

Charles Edwards Freshwater (02:23.437)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (02:26.897)

no like some of it's painted some of it's like it's all just really bad and it's just like but that's cool

Izzy (02:33.200)


Izzy (02:37.160)

my fist laid plans and all that geesethatas just the word is the worst when you gripped them all up there

Charles Edwards Freshwater (02:39.777)

we now what exactly i mean luckily it's only like we only have carpet on our light stairs in the hall ways but yeahit'sjust yeah put me on a bit of down but these things happen

Izzy (02:56.200)

no i could magitlikeyeah when you have the plan of what you want for it and then it's just not an that's honestly rubbish at

Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:01.697)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:05.037)

it's what it is

Izzy (03:07.500)

okay i am going to if you're ready then i'll take things off and we'll just work through we'll do like general characteristics talk a little bit about her honesty because i think that just like is like a lot of it like she's an honest person i'm not gnnaliveand then like honestly i feel like this is you and you're going to be like mary croft's the best the hell is funny doing it a live

Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:12.437)

i mean

Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:27.697)

i love herannyis the worst in the bin

Izzy (03:32.120)

literally and then if we talk a little bit about her relationship with edmond and then but that's a lot of it and then i thought at the end we could talk about how well her and fanny's friendship how they're compared a lot and then also i genuinely think she's only a villain because fanny makes her a villain like i don't think that she's i feel like this two instances that i suggest she might be a little bit villainous but honestly there it's not big enough reasons for me but we can will

Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:38.297)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:47.797)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (03:53.997)

you think he's right

Izzy (04:02.080)

we can look at both sides of the coin okay we would be completely biased

Charles Edwards Freshwater (04:04.397)

yeah i think yea we explore both sides but you know i think you're probably a bit right actually i think fanny is minitloursef a little bit

Izzy (04:12.640)

i do too i don't know if you listen to the hurry pater episode but i was like funny is a slither telling

Charles Edwards Freshwater (04:18.857)

ah she's so cutting she's all like poor me sure fanny

Izzy (04:22.900)

well like i'm sick all the time i can't cut roses it's like why the hell not funny like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (04:30.377)

sort of out fanny

Izzy (04:32.020)

hold yourself please dear kick things off as going been so funny and i i i'm going to have some people who like massive i actually got a message on one was like i look funny because funny is like a survivor of family trauma and i was like oh god don't listen to this episode

Charles Edwards Freshwater (04:36.037)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (04:52.137)

yeah i think this is a lot it's always like man part my favorite because fanny is so relatable and i can't agree like if you relate to fanny we have problems right

Izzy (04:58.760)

that's unfortunate i'm sorry for you

Izzy (05:05.900)

literally oh my god so funny okay that i'll kick things off and we'll get into it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (05:07.877)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (05:11.657)

yeah let's go

Izzy (05:13.380)

hi you and welcome back to the austinpodcast this is episode forty and we are doing another character study joining me today is charlie from the book boy bookstagram account charlie was on last year for who wants to be a millionaire episode where we discussed who is the wealthiest jane austin hero so it's so wonderful to have you back with me charlie i'm so glad to have you on again

Charles Edwards Freshwater (05:34.857)

it's great to be back i loved it last time so looking forward to this time

Izzy (05:38.900)

we always have so much fun so today what we were thinking of doing is a character study on mary crawford which i feel like mary crawford and montville park at both kind of controversial at times because people either love mary or hate mary i'm definitely in the field of loving mary and i think charlie you're a bit like me but we thought you gin to kind of talk through it all you know let's look at both sides let's look at mary is a whole yeah

Charles Edwards Freshwater (06:01.337)


Izzy (06:08.840)

do a deep dive on mary

Charles Edwards Freshwater (06:12.057)

yeah good plan and yeah now i am i am team mary is it must be said i do think she's great but it will be really good if we look at both and yeah you put her on trial so to speak let's do it

Izzy (06:25.480)

absolutely so i saw some people saying that mary crawford's often considered the real heroine of manville park or the satisfying protagonist in the only reason i guess she isn't because she doesn't marry edmond at the end and that's obviously why fanny is the quote on heroine in the terms that like jane austin sets for a heroine like they have to marry the the hero in the end but i thought it as so interesting that some people consider her the satisfying protagonist and i was like i wonder if that's because she

Izzy (06:56.360)

she's more relatable to a modern audience you know because she's like so self confident and ambitious and she's just self sufficient as well compared to funny and i think that's like a lot more relatable to people nowadays

Charles Edwards Freshwater (07:10.677)

absolutely it would have been interesting to know what people viewed mary like at the time you know when it was first published because i think you're right i think mary is quite an exciting modern character she knows what she wants and she doesn't have to settle for anything necessarily she has i think a fortune of twenty thousand pounds was it and ou know she's got she's got means and she's happy to use them and take her own path and i think that's really exciting and yeah may be back in the day

was not exciting maybe people would have been like oh mary stop and we're like yes marry go for it so yeah

Izzy (07:44.480)

you've got all your red yeah i know and the thing is as well she's described as being like remarkably pretty she's got lively dark eyes like you said she's reasonably well off with twenty thousand pounds if you think in comparison to miss darcy miss darcy was at thirty thousand pounds so there's not that much of a difference there and then i also think as well like i was reading that the copy that i have on one of the copies that i have is the words worth classic edition

Izzy (08:14.920)

and i'll take this one actually on to my my bookshop or account guys like if you want to go on to the bio just because this one is really good because it has a lot of stuff in the introduction and also at the end where it's like this is what this word means and things so that's really good but there's an introduction by a guy called little word and he makes a really good point where he says the term lively when describing the elizabeth bennett is always positive but when it describes mary crawford it's kind of there's a conflict between liveliness and moral like

moral impropriety if that makes sense and so i was like that's actually so interestin it's like all the things that austin's told us are good with other heroines like bein bold been outspoken being lively is certainly like we have to view it in a different light with montville park you know wat mean because she set against the quote i'm quite heroine and it's like isn't that so funny like all of those characteristics we've originally thought like really good and all the other protagonists is now the

the more anti hero person

Charles Edwards Freshwater (09:16.657)

yeah i mean i hadn't thought of that before but you're so right isn't it i mean mary crawford and lizzie bennet are not dissimilar are they really if you think about it if anything mary crawford is better off and has more of a kind of drive to be that way so we should be applauding her kind of more i would say for following what she wants to do but i think maybe just because we're meant to see fanny so downtrodden and you know poor fanny so to have someone who is

velly and perfect and beautiful and talented a harp of all things you know more i think it's just kind of that sort of there's an element of jealousy there i imagine and that's why she's the villain on that level way

Izzy (09:59.940)

yeah yeah i totally agree and i was wondering as well it's like the difference that elizabeth bennet is kind of not actively seeking marriage like she's kind of like jokes about it a lot and she's like oh i'll die an old maid is fine but the fact that mary's like going about like the narrative even state you know like matrimony was her object provided she could marry well and i wonder if it's that that kind of desire for to marry for like self promotion which is we see in some of the

Charles Edwards Freshwater (10:20.997)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (10:29.497)


Izzy (10:29.760)

it's like if you think somebody villains if you think of people like lucy steele or isabella thorpe they want to marry for self promotion i was like is it the difference between marrying for self promotion a self preservation is that what makes you more of a villain like if your trying to marry well like well off i'm just like maybe that's like what what is like makes her more of a villainous character because she is like i want tom because tom is the air of the fortune

Charles Edwards Freshwater (10:45.597)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (10:52.337)

uh uh

Charles Edwards Freshwater (10:55.857)

they play over but i get what you mean but then we have to think you know miss bennett she's not a villain at all right and her whole stick is my daughters need to marry well we need to set them up you know i think it's just a very of the time and yeah it's a tricky one to decide how how to judge someone on a on a villains level like regarding that as a as a motivation i would say you're correct in that i think if you're actively going out to be a woman

looking for a good match i think that's viewed as a bit naughty but it's the truth of the time as well so it's just a hard one

Izzy (11:34.500)

that's so true and i guess the difference with mary crawford is she's so self sufficient that it's you know she is actively looking for a hero or a husband or whatever and she she isn't relying on anyone else to help her find it like she's not relying on a parents she seems slightly estranged from like a step because she's like living with his mistress now or something and again that's another like another way that she's like totally open though like she she's honest about what she wants from a relationship she wants to marry well she wants to be rich in her

Charles Edwards Freshwater (11:53.097)


Izzy (12:05.460)

um i don't know if that's a bad thing being honest about it so i quite admire that because i'm like you know what if you know what you want you go and get that

Charles Edwards Freshwater (12:06.397)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (12:16.517)

yeah and that absolutely and i think i mean honesty is a virtue right so so she's not hiding she's not necessarily manipulating people she's fully stating this is what i like this is what i want and yeah i think that's why i can't see her as a villain because she's she's not she doesn't hire her intentions necessarily she's just going for going for gold and fair play

Izzy (12:42.680)

no and i think there's a couple of really interesting instances where we see this one of them i think really earlier at the start she is the only person that's like henry is a horrible flirt if the bertram sisters don't want their hearts broken like they need to avoid him because he's like terrible lore and she loves her brother but she knows what he's like and she's honest about it and she tells her her sister that missus grant she's like you know henry is a knivertislike he flirts with loads of women and love breaking people's hearts

Charles Edwards Freshwater (12:59.397)


Izzy (13:12.800)

um and and she's and i look that she's like open about that

Charles Edwards Freshwater (13:18.577)

yeah absolutely and i think henry is a really interesting character in himself but like the fact that she is fully aware of what he's like and doesn't see him for any sort of rose tinted but he's my brother i love him and she's like no he is he's a rake right like is going to be bad news so and yeah she's never ah never kind of against that either which you know i guess maybe that makes her a villain for not telling him to be a better person than all of that but then would she be

Izzy (13:47.580)

but he's a step spirit like he can do what he wants you know

Charles Edwards Freshwater (13:49.637)

yeah exactly but also i feel like maybe at the time would she even be able to give that kind of guidance without him being like well i don't care it's a tough one and e bviously love each other anyway so

Izzy (14:02.920)

yeah yeah that's so true and i think you know what for all intents and purposes like a brother salista brother sister relationship he's really good to her like he's always coming in like picking her up in the carriage to take er where she wants to go next like i think there's a point where she's like waiting for him to come and pick her up so you got he'll take her back to london and everything so i think that's really nice actually like he's always there for and he sticks around months field a bit longer whether to keep her company and you know

can i quite like their relationship because i feel like they are they do know each other really well and they have really good banter and they're just like a nice for the sister bomddting

Charles Edwards Freshwater (14:44.677)

yeah no i agree and then but maybe it's because it is quite a modern relationship like again that's the sort of banter you'd expect to have with your brother nowadays where else maybe back then it was a bit like you're both a bit naughty

Izzy (14:56.320)

yes that's so treat

Izzy (15:00.380)

that's so true absolutely and i think actually interesting as i think because they're placed in comparison to like how the people like the family how the how the bertram family are behaving at mont fel park and i feel like in terms of like the silan relationships there it's all like a little bit weirder like i feel like the well you've got tom and he's like you know off being crazy all the time you've got edmond who's bit like got something stuck up his bum half the time and he's like a little bit too

intense and then you've got maria and julia who on the surface are meant to be like these perfect women who are like the most beautiful and accomplished in everything but obviously deep down there quite like immature are in if they're given the opportunity they they'll be quite scandalous and so i think it's kind of interesting like i think the virtues in comparison they're a bit of a mess compared to like henry and mary like i know that they are doing their own

Charles Edwards Freshwater (15:38.397)


Izzy (16:00.320)

tins and both of them are shy of stating what they want and going after it but i think both of them are a lot more honest than what we see from the buchan family

Charles Edwards Freshwater (16:12.077)

yeah absolutely and i feel i eanarearewe actually kind of suggesting that may be julia and maria of the true villains of a strong but you know you're right they have a lot of repression and secrecy and all of that is why it's such a you know the drama unfolds whereas again the crawfords at best for a catalist to this but i wouldn't say there necessarily fully to blame takes two to tango right

and you know they're honest from the start and the daughters and the sons are not so

Izzy (16:48.920)

yeah and i think it'd be good to chat about like the way that edmond just as well because i feel like edmond is really should at times like even when miss crawford's at the dinner table and she's talking about i think it's like a uncle actually now he steps out who's like moved in with the mistress and edmond says like he was sorry to hear miss crawford like talk about her uncle so freely like it had like he didn't see his sense of propriety and i was just like but then but then he also says like but then he saw her smile and like be livelier

Charles Edwards Freshwater (17:10.337)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (17:13.837)


Izzy (17:18.840)

then he was just like i'll just put that to a side for a second but it goes to funny and he's like was there not something in a conversation that wasn't quite right and it really irritates me because i'm just like edmond if you think there's something not quite right there like stick to your guns do you know what i mean like it don't be like oh but it's okay because she's got a nice smile and everything else is fine that's really irritates me about this is mary is not fake from the start like she's on she's happy to talk about uncle openly in

Charles Edwards Freshwater (17:21.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (17:33.997)


Izzy (17:49.320)

esmond so sour about it but then he still continues to be like oh but i'll see the good in her and i don't know if i can see that in a positive light because i'm just like why expect that mary is going to change he's always like oh well that's just like a side of her and it's like what's the issue if that's a full part of her

Charles Edwards Freshwater (17:54.137)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (18:02.037)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (18:07.997)

yeah i think i think we've really touched on why just like edmond he's just so he's so sanctimonious about everything right and he's a bit for one of the better word bit right so he's all at this dinner table being like oh yeah what an awful thing to say and then goes to talk to fanny about it and just slips her for a while and then goes but she's hot basically free card great love it and i just feel

Izzy (18:12.640)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (18:38.717)

yeah if anything that shows his weakness of character rather than hers for just being lively god forbid and yeah i don't know i just think there's bits where obviously she's even very clear about what she doesn't like about him you know him you know being ordained and all of that she's like oh i'd never really want that she says it through his faith and she's still honest exactly

Izzy (19:01.820)

religious she's like do really careful with all that stuff she's like i think think she says like i think clergymen are all like lazy and like not properly or just basically like living off the state or something like she's pretty like honest about it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (19:10.237)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (19:15.077)

exactly i mean

Charles Edwards Freshwater (19:19.177)

there's a bit of n't it where she's like oh i wouldn't imagine kneeling on a cold floor every morning somthing and i was like fair play like it's clearly not the vie if you don't want it don't do it

Izzy (19:31.160)

i knew even when she finds out that that is what he wants to do for a career she isn't shy to be like is there not something else you can do she's like men love to distinguish themselves like a clergyman is nothing do you not have a wealthy uncle who can leave you a fortune and i'm just like how much more clearer can you be do ou know what i mean and if edmond wasn't willing si change his mind about what he wanted to do i don't think it was right for him to keep encouraging the situation because

Charles Edwards Freshwater (19:45.937)

yeah yeah

Izzy (20:00.420)

like you're saying at the beginning mary is on the hunt for a husband and that's not uncommon for women at the time to be looking for a husband like wherever they're doing it like i want well for husband as i would be rich and happy or if they're just you know going to balls so that they can meet someone you know they have got to find a way to marry someone because there isn't really much else you can do in this second point where she actually says like i'm really i was really says here she was very angry with him she thought her influence more she had to go

Charles Edwards Freshwater (20:01.397)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (20:04.457)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (20:21.997)


Izzy (20:30.300)

to think of him she felt she had with great regard with almost decided intentions but she would now meet him with his own cool feelings it was plain that he could have no serious views no true attachment and that's how i feel as well i was like i'm gonna send you can't truly want to be with me if you're sticking to your guns that you want to be a clergyman and i guess you can see at both sides that it's like well he is a man of god and he wants to stick to that but i'm like i also find him a bit hypocritical because

Charles Edwards Freshwater (20:50.497)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (20:59.277)

is it it's like they're both asking each other to change and because mary doesn't it's like oh she's terrible but he's terrible needs to be a bit of push and shove and the zero of that on his side and at least she kind of still talks to him after he's made his professional intention is clear and she still says like oh well you know there's still a future if we could do this you know she problem solves or at least theattempts to and he's just like now so it's his problem

Izzy (21:28.300)

and you say that she doesn't change but i feel like she softens like the way that she is quite a lot like the more time she spends with him and so i'm like and also she starts to be like oh maybe living in a small house in the country wouldn't be so bad and she just starts to think about ways that she could make it work but like where's his flexibility that you know where where is he adjusted slightly

Charles Edwards Freshwater (21:28.337)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (21:50.497)

exactly there's none he's literally just like oh no not doing thatand then he's like oh you know let's go and marry my weird sort of sister instead weird

Izzy (22:02.640)

gosh i mean we don't even need to god don't need to get into that do you think he's absolutely hilarious edmond in my eyes is like one of the worst heroes ever and he managed to has like two women after him i'm just like what my missis to rin

Charles Edwards Freshwater (22:02.737)

uh h

Charles Edwards Freshwater (22:16.457)

well i guess compared to his brother you know at least he's not gambling alcoholic right

Izzy (22:23.300)

yeah it's true i love

Charles Edwards Freshwater (22:26.357)

slim pickings from that area may be

Izzy (22:29.280)

i loved him when mary jane she's like oh i'm going to go for tom because he's know i've seen him in town and he seems like he's a good laugh and he's really flirty and you know he's the heir to the fortune and all that lot and then by the end of the novel she's like i hope he dies

Charles Edwards Freshwater (22:43.137)

yeah lodge

Izzy (22:47.740)

i feel like those are one of the like one of the reasons that people like you know that's awful because she wishes him to be dead but i actually think that mary is speaks to a part of i think just like human nature where people are survivors you know and she's like she isn't wrong that if one is to die you know edmond get the fortune that probably would be a vetersenari for the irtune family and it solves all of her problems like because edmond you would no longer become

Charles Edwards Freshwater (23:15.577)


Izzy (23:16.900)

clergymen and i'm like i know it's really selfish and really hatnous and horrible but i'm also like it's very practical

Charles Edwards Freshwater (23:25.857)

yeah at the end of the day he keeps putting himself in the position to almost die by over drinking parting too hard you know she's just being logical about the situation and if someone parties too hard and unfortunately dive and ends up making your match more eligible i think you know exactly i'd be against her if she you know smacking around the head with a rolling pin to get me wrong but

Izzy (23:42.500)


Izzy (23:47.240)

it's not like she's killing him off you know that

Izzy (23:54.660)

ah with the hop she pushes the whole on and crushes him

Charles Edwards Freshwater (23:55.877)

he's doing it himself

Charles Edwards Freshwater (23:59.337)

yeah she is always playing that harp too far

Izzy (24:03.200)

i know i know i also you know what surprise me about edmond is i know mary's like super pretty and super super accomplished and she plays this half half amazingly but it's lit like within a week is literally says in the book like within a week he was like in love with her i'm just like well that that is some quick feelings that you generated there just like a wonder if he was like more infatuated with her and that's why he kept trying to think of her that she was like this perfect person for him

and the truth was that she would never be able to live up to that you know what i mean like i feel like he kept trying to put aside her fault with what he considered her faults but the truth was that she was never going to change that much and i think we can condemn marion not like changing for this guy who just who doesn't seem to like all parts of it like i'm sorry that's not her fault that he's got you know these opinions about what he thinks is right and wrong against someone you know if he's that self right just why pick fanny

Charles Edwards Freshwater (24:56.057)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (24:59.737)


Izzy (25:03.140)

the offset you know

Charles Edwards Freshwater (25:04.917)

exactly god but also i feel the whole of her kind of being him falling in love with her instantly it's kind of that kind of her being a siren playing the harp being beautiful leering good man to bad things like it i think that kind of fits in with her whole seductress thing which where if you read between the lines isn't there you know we're seeing kind of sort of really skewed view of her just because she's easy to see as a villain because she's beautiful tan

did people fall in love with her but she she doesn't really deserve it she is just nice so

Izzy (25:41.920)

well like i think sometimes that does cloud people's judgment and i wonder if that was the same back in the day because i think about the way that jane austin described emma where she said you know i'm going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like and it makes me wonder if like people really didn't like to read about wealthy like protagonists or heroines and things like they wanted people to be you know i deplore a situation where they kind of brought out of poverty is opposed to or not necessarily poverty but you know like boutin

Charles Edwards Freshwater (26:11.137)


Izzy (26:11.740)

that situation through love is opposed to somebody who's already well off like maybe it was more difficult to see somebody who had money as righteous

Charles Edwards Freshwater (26:23.117)

and especially a woman with money right a woman with agency a woman who's not like i need a man to save me straight away maybe on the wider scale it was harder for people to look at that and be like well you know why get married at all if if you're wealthy and having a great time and emma says that at one point i'm fairly certain she's like i don't need to marry and that must have been quite a contentious point for a lot of people

Izzy (26:48.260)

yeah just being like i feel like really confident and independent as a woman as ell because if you think about the difference between mary how she's like this really active person like she says nothing ever fatigues me but doing what i do not like and i just like that is such a brilliant line in you know she never wants like edmond to hold her up and she's always like and we walk a bit further please because i'm not tired yet i want to keep walking as posed funny he's always like i need to sit down for a bit do you know what you mean

Charles Edwards Freshwater (27:02.637)

m m

Charles Edwards Freshwater (27:05.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (27:11.917)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (27:17.697)

i do

Izzy (27:18.800)

mary still active and has so much energy and that's just like it was meant what we meant to see that is that that's like a bad thing i don't know

Charles Edwards Freshwater (27:28.937)

again it draws it back to sort of like lizzie bennet goes on walks how amazing how great also it's like mary crawford goes n walks bad girl sit down it's weird it is a complete yeah it's just a strange shift of what we are meant to see as bad behavior compared to all of her other works really like yeah very strange how mary responsible for so much hatred

Izzy (27:37.060)


Izzy (27:54.660)

i would love to know like what jane austin thought of mary crawford like because it is so different like the way that she she doesn't win out and i think it's that she says like there's a line there's a line you can cross and i think she thinks that mary crosses the line where it's it's not being lively and outspoken in a way that's acceptable it's like as soon as you cross the line like saying like i hope that tom dies or but being accepting of her brother kind

flirting with all these women like maybe she does just cross slightly over a line that there's no coming back from in it pushes her into the realms of people like lucy steele or isabella thorpe

Charles Edwards Freshwater (28:27.397)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (28:37.397)

yeah you're correct i think it must be that sort of she's slightly too livelygod forbid but yeah i think it is it's that kind of there is a she doesn't have the pure white morals backing up her other good attributes so over all that was not not giving her a way out

Izzy (28:56.200)

yeah absolutely

Izzy (29:01.000)

no no and also she's not opposed to being a part of the play like lovers vows is obviously like a bit controversial and she's just like yeah i'd love to be a part of it i think just because she wants to have a good time she's just for anything and so are most of the other ones as well but what i find really interested about this she's like yes i want to do the play and she's even willing to do with a stranger like she feels a little bit weird about it she's like we don't really i'm not comfortable about this but i will do it if i have to edwin's be like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (29:08.017)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (29:12.737)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (29:16.857)


Izzy (29:30.820)

on his high horse but why they shouldn't do the play like it's the worst thing ever honestly going around saying all of this and as soon as mary crawfislike goin do an intimate scene were stranger is like i'll step in i'll do an intimacy with you mary don't you worry

Charles Edwards Freshwater (29:44.217)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (29:49.617)

exactly and again i think a lot of his talking about it is behind everyone's back again he's quite he's not a nice guy and such a hypocrite and the fact that fanny doesn't kind of address this later on like surely she should be like actually edmond's a bit of a nice hole

Izzy (30:08.280)

she's just the funniest thing she's like could it be possible edmond so inconsistent and i'm like yes it could funny is continually inconsistent that the other thing is consistent about inconsistency

Charles Edwards Freshwater (30:15.257)

yes has been from the spot level

Charles Edwards Freshwater (30:22.277)

that's like his main character trade

Izzy (30:25.480)

but you know what really blows my mind about the fact like fanny's view on edmond doing the play as she says alas it was all miss crawford's doing

Izzy (30:37.760)

was it and this brings me to something that honestly really bothers me i genuinely think the only reason mary crawford's villain is because fanny thinks she's a villain like gene think it's all it's all through fanny's eyes

Charles Edwards Freshwater (30:37.857)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (30:47.877)

a hundred percent

Charles Edwards Freshwater (30:52.457)

is that like what sort of reasoning is that is almost crawfedsdoing because she said yes and everyone else did too

Izzy (30:59.220)

and edmond will say you know but then suddenly is like oh yes if i get the chums to you know snug mary crawford i'll do it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (31:02.577)

you know yeah whatever exactly god miss crawford how dare you be so sexy

Izzy (31:12.480)

yes this is the thing i don't quite understand how that's possibly mary crawford's fault that edmond's done it in mary is not stealing edmond because actually at the start of the book she makes a point of finding out whether or not whether or not funny is out in society she has this full debate with edmond and tom where they're talking about what is funny into balls does she like socialized with people outside and they come to the conclusion that

isn't out and so mary couldn't be more oblivious to fanny having like a potential attachment to edmond because as far as she's aware fanny kind of falls with i don't even know like you're like a younger child if that makes it somebody is not even hit marriage market age or something or potentially will never be in the marriage market because she'll be a companion for life and i'm like she's not in any way be malicious about this like she's not thinking i can see that fanny likes edmond

Charles Edwards Freshwater (31:44.297)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (31:58.337)

yeah absolutely

Charles Edwards Freshwater (32:06.097)


Izzy (32:12.440)

i'll take edmund away she is completely oblivious to that

Charles Edwards Freshwater (32:14.777)

exactly yeah and we have to address the fact that i mean they've grown up together as kids right and he calls her sister like quite a few times like if i was mary i'd be like okay clearly not going to happen between them right doesn't really inspire like oh yeah i can see their own love of each other you're saying oh they've got like a family love because they play together they were young children together a whole brother sister thing

Charles Edwards Freshwater (32:45.117)

it really wasn't the sexyvibes

Izzy (32:47.880)


Izzy (32:50.820)

i feel like mary makes an effort to be friends wie fanny because she sees that edmund and fanny themselves close friends like i think she's like all i want to make sure that edmond knows that i'm you know friendly with fanny like if fanny is important to edmond i'll get to know her and be kind to it and i mean i'll get on to like a few instances later where i think it really stands out that fanny is that mary is kind to fanny and fanny just calm she just can't see and fanny makes a point you see she is

Charles Edwards Freshwater (32:59.097)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (33:15.137)


Izzy (33:20.760)

rise how much time edmond can spend with miss crawford and not see the kind of fault which she had already observed and for which she was almost always reminded by something of the same nature whenever she was in her company

Charles Edwards Freshwater (33:36.577)


Izzy (33:37.740)

well she possibly does that's me you feel this way like i get it because she's in love with edmond and she's jealous

Charles Edwards Freshwater (33:45.337)


Izzy (33:48.700)

you know what i mean like this is the thing that i'm like i really struggled to understand how people can see mary as a villain because i'm like what she possibly done that's villainous like fanny yes sesar is a villain which

Izzy (34:00.460)

i can't kind of understand because if somebody's like flirting with a person that you like like you would be a bit like like are you lost like what you do in like you know you would be annoyed with them naturally just because you're jealous but i'm like i feel like a lot of people don't like don't see it that way and that really surprises me

Charles Edwards Freshwater (34:15.997)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (34:21.257)

yeah saying especially if we have to consider some people are really not nice to fanny right like most of her family are horrible to and mary's kind and she's still mars the worst not her aunt who's like absolutely the worst or you know i mean she obviously touches on those things but they are actively hostile to her and there is like oh let's be friends and she's like why would i be friends if you

Izzy (34:48.260)

here's a time when fanny is walking down by the parsonage where mary is staying and may ivvitesandshe's like i know you've not yet heard me play the harp like i'll play the harp for you we'll have coffee together edimonis not even there so you can't even say that she's only friends with fanny for this motive like i genuinely think she enjoys spending time with her and you know they do that for some reason they spend all they spend all this time together even

Charles Edwards Freshwater (35:05.097)

no exactly

Charles Edwards Freshwater (35:07.757)

yeah surprisingly

Charles Edwards Freshwater (35:11.817)

ah yes

Izzy (35:16.680)

she takes her horse when she comes back she's like and if she doesn't apologize but she says you know selfishness can't be cured you know it's just it's just what it is but she's not like missus norris you'd be like why do you think you're entitled to a horse anyway funny go away you know what i mean it's different isn't it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (35:34.197)

exactly exactly and that's like if someone said that to me i'd be like fair play like it's a bit of banter right it's like i went out on your horse it's not the end of the world for my just got a hobby

Izzy (35:50.740)

if anything i feel like again that's more on edmond because he made such a point that funny needs to go on these like you go on these horse rides and walk in and stuff for a health or whatever and i'm like he was taking mary off that it was so important to him he could have been like gosh mary look at the time we better be getting back for funny

Charles Edwards Freshwater (36:02.297)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (36:06.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (36:11.457)

yeah but shockingly he didn't is almost like all of it's his fault but he is like again how is she a seductress when all she is doing is like oh we're going a horse road and yet he is the one who is fully aware here's other plans other things in place which are all being broken and fanny will be upset he should be fully aware of that he is aware of all of that and yet we're being told that mary is bad for it why

Izzy (36:15.140)


Izzy (36:35.620)

i know i know it's actually we can be more frustrated about the whole thing because i'm like she's like why are we here to blame mary mary just trying to live alive she's been honest the whole way through she's never lied about what she wants from a husband a lot of ever villains do think of lucy steele like lucy steele is all about edward and then suddenly marries his brother like she like you couldn't get more secretive

Charles Edwards Freshwater (36:40.337)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (36:59.597)

yeah like a blue legend

Izzy (37:05.520)

or deceitful than that or isabella thorpe

Charles Edwards Freshwater (37:08.197)

isabella though so so deceitful so planning everything like i mean that is villain behavior mary just likes for harp you know why are we holding it against her

Izzy (37:20.040)

and she's actually just like i want to marry somebody rich and i want to be happy and then edmond's surprised that she's not satisfied with him being a clergyman like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (37:25.457)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (37:32.397)

and she's not religious so she can't even get on with that you know so like why would you be happy with that fair it's just

Izzy (37:33.940)

and she saw

Izzy (37:38.700)

and i feel like at that point edward edmund should have been like she's not right for me because if the church is so important to me i need to be with somebody who shares the same values and morals as me and i feel like maybe on mary crawford's side she should have been like if you want to join the church and stuff that's not really the life i'm looking for but i'm like if you got feelings with someone yeah

Charles Edwards Freshwater (38:01.297)

but i feel like she did say that right she was literally like this is not the life i want so is there a chance of changing and he's like no but i'll be vague about it sting you along so you know it's not like yeah absolutely because i think she did like him a lot otherwise why would she not just go for a rich brother if she just wanted money you just go for rich brother done simple she obviously did like him found him charming found him engaging

Izzy (38:06.940)


Izzy (38:16.340)

i didn't ask why she gets so upset

Charles Edwards Freshwater (38:31.357)

somehow and and then you know she's genuinely upset because he's a hypocrite i don't know

Izzy (38:40.780)

follows him to london he still still until the end i feel like at that point hasn't even been ordained at that point and he still is he not he still not being aditting to that point so he's like really he's like really close to it like literally a couple of weeks from it and he still goes to london to see her in that situation i'm just like if he wasn't willing to change why i keep doing it so to me that's what

Charles Edwards Freshwater (38:43.477)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (38:52.617)

i don't think so

Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:01.657)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:05.237)

like a stolen

Izzy (39:11.660)

but then i yea i think so and then i also think about how weird he is about the uncle's situation but surely what's worse is the fact that her uncle lives with his mistress in his pretty much abandoned her aunt like surely that's the worst not that mary is talking about it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:11.677)

yeah we was

Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:25.757)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:29.277)

yes exactly i guess it must be sort of like a man is thing like you shouldn't talk about things which are happening in your family which are a bit dodged but at the end of the day so much i mean they talk about his brother all the time the gambling alcoholic you know psycho surely that's just as bad as adultery like i don't know wow

Izzy (39:53.060)

they could have done with talking a bit more in that family in general considering how everything turned out

Charles Edwards Freshwater (39:57.077)

that's why they all keep stuff they're all repressed and keep running off of people and breaking their own engagements

Izzy (40:04.920)

i know i love that mary's so honest about rushworth as well she's like you know it's a real great catch for maria but he used you know a bit of a buffoon like she's literally just like he's been of an idiot though let's be honest

Charles Edwards Freshwater (40:16.497)

yeah but i mean if anything what a great great husband to get like when we did our wealth one wasn't he super rich super and stupid yes when when we

Izzy (40:23.120)

you like the wealthiest

Izzy (40:29.000)

this is the thing and i feel like she also said like mary says you know i'm not sure if maria will be able to stick it out because she's like i feel like she's got a bit of a wonder she's a little bit more fun out there than at the life he's going to provide and she she was a little bit like i'm not sure if this is actually gonna going to work out the way that she thinks like i hope it does because he's a great catch but i'm not a hundred percent sure that it will and so she has got a lot of foresight and a lot

Charles Edwards Freshwater (40:50.037)


Izzy (41:01.000)

i don't know she she's quite good at sucking people out

Charles Edwards Freshwater (41:04.517)

yeah i think she's definitely got a good judge of character generally which again is interesting that she's a villain in people's eve because you know that's a very heroine trait right like they're meant to be the people who sat people out properly and categorize them correctly and mary's right the whole way through

Izzy (41:23.960)

yeah yeah gosh i feel like there's a scene but for me really i think just as like the nail in the coffin the bar is not a villain and i don't understand why fanny doesn't see this in a better perspective but it's basically where miss norris is being really cruel to fanny and there's a scene it said miss crawford looking for a moment with astonished eyes at miss norris and then at fanny whose tears were beginning to show themselves immediately said with some key in this i do not like my situation this place is too

Charles Edwards Freshwater (41:35.857)


Izzy (41:53.880)

for me i moved away her chair to the opposite side of the table close to fanny saying to her in a kind of low whisper as she placed herself my dear miss price this is across evening everybody is cross and teasing do not let us mind them and with pointed attention continue to talk to her and endeavor to raise her spirits in spite of being out of spirits herself and it says that fanny didn't love miss crawford she but she felt very blessed to have this present kindness

Charles Edwards Freshwater (42:20.257)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (42:26.397)

oh god that's excellent

Izzy (42:28.060)

it's like kindness is is the only kind that i think this is the only true kindness that she's seen edmond makes too much of a fuss when he tells missus norris that he's like why have you been getting funny picking roses and everything but mary does it in such a subtle way where she's just like don't worry about it you know everybody's cross i'm here for you fanny let's talk about your brother he's off at sea let's talk about something else why on earth would mary need to do

Charles Edwards Freshwater (42:33.277)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (42:45.997)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (42:56.097)


Izzy (42:58.120)

for fanny as fanny really to mary crawford

Charles Edwards Freshwater (43:01.017)

exactly no one exactly like the sort of sister of a man she kind of fancied i think she really does go out of her way to be really sweet and yeah i just i can't see why people read that and just be like yeah what a bit

Izzy (43:21.100)

and also i feel like mary's putting herself on the line i know missus norris isn't like massively up there and standing and stuff but she's definitely higher up than fanny and so she is willing to kind of shun missus norris to be like fanny or you're okay like i can't believe she's astonished like she is genuinely shocked at how bad they treat fanny and henry is exactly the same like he makes a point of saying i want to take fanny out of this situation this family are horrible both of them say that and i'm just like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (43:32.697)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (43:42.097)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (43:46.457)


Izzy (43:50.320)

i don't see how i honestly see the birthrooms as the villains i think they're all problematic

Charles Edwards Freshwater (43:58.677)

hundred percent yeah absolutely i think edmond's the main villain throwing out there the villain got the girl it's just

Izzy (44:08.440)

i mean sorry go on

Charles Edwards Freshwater (44:11.517)

i'm sorry it's just a weird dynamic generally but horrible to her they took her in really begrudgingly at best and at the end she's like well the family right it was just like not really like just horrible and you had a chance to marry henry who has at least you know i wanted to improve himself and even said so and was like i would change for you and i don't know it's bizarre to me


Izzy (44:42.460)

if i was funny i would have then i think i've said this before but i would have picked henry i genuinely would have i would have been like this family do not care about me i need to remove myself because i'm slightly obsessed with the more and i'm going to go i fall in love with my sivililike like that you've got to remove yourself and you've been offered marriage from a guy who's wealthy like you said willing to change for you he actively wants to

Charles Edwards Freshwater (44:47.057)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (44:53.677)

i'm slightly your brother leave alone

Charles Edwards Freshwater (45:01.037)


Izzy (45:12.360)

move from a situation that he sees back and he wants to give you the best in the world like again terrible person another villain

Charles Edwards Freshwater (45:17.277)

yeah so and also what i find so is like he's fully willing to be like look i'm a bit bad but i really take what you say into account and i really value your import like when fanny talks to no i will do this and and like he obviously does care about her opinions on things which no one else in this whole book does possibly even marry why is he a villain as well the villains are just nice

well i just don't really get it

Izzy (45:51.180)

i feel like they're just normal people just being like you know there something weird about this whole setup it months field like we want better for you fanny

Charles Edwards Freshwater (45:52.517)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (45:57.897)

it's cut

Charles Edwards Freshwater (46:02.257)

it's very odd and i just family shouldn't be that way like i don't know it's all just very out of touch and you're right i think very and henry are quite normal people in a lot of ways and there their villainy is that they're outspoken and possibly not always morally correct but i would say they're less morally corrupt than all of the rest of the family put together so

Izzy (46:04.920)

it is hard

Izzy (46:31.520)

i think so as well i know a lot of people say that like part of mary's okay villain nurse if there is any is that when henry says that he wants to start like pursuing fanny this s before he's fallen in love with her you know she says like oh well she says like i don't i don't want you to make fanny unhappy like she's come so far like she's grown a lot since i think it's like autumn or spring owever she's like she's she's a really good person

Charles Edwards Freshwater (46:54.197)


Izzy (47:01.500)

i like her a lot i don't want you to hear all of which is very nice towards fanny but a lot of people say she doesn't go far enough like knowing what her brother is like she doesn't say no don't touch fanny don't go for fanny but i'm literally just like i don't know what harm it would do fanny to have henry flirt in with her a little bit you know what i mean like i'm a bit like if fanny is not interested she's not interested that's funny but like i said as far as mary is concerned fanny is not even now she's not even been around anybody what harm is it if henry wants to

Charles Edwards Freshwater (47:20.557)


Izzy (47:31.640)

was there a little bit

Charles Edwards Freshwater (47:32.197)

exactly and she still said don't hurt her that's all you can do what you're gonna do stable him into a different room so he can't go near her like you said don't upset her what else can you do it's a warning and that's yea if anything that's to show how much niceness is to fanny again

Izzy (47:52.540)

she i mean she says at the start about the bertram sister she's like look if they don't want their heart broke and they need to stay away from him but she actually goes much further when it comes to fanny and she's says look fanny's a really nice person don't want you heard you know she's she's come very far like she's she's much grown since whatever time she's grown from and you know she sings her praises and i just think shey goes a lot further for i don't think she really does care about fanny i can't see this evilness

Charles Edwards Freshwater (47:59.197)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (48:10.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (48:18.797)


Izzy (48:22.160)

evil intent towards fanny at all i don't think she has any of that i think fanny thinks she does i think fanny is so jealous that she creates this villain in mary

Charles Edwards Freshwater (48:27.717)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (48:31.977)

yeah absolutely and i think it's misplaced anger which should be directed against her whole family and especially edmond for being such a hypocriteit's just weird she's a perfect scapegoat right just pretty talented and edmond likes her so she must be bad

Izzy (48:46.740)


Izzy (48:53.880)

i know i know i feel like this is like the perfect example of why you shouldn't jump jump down like on other women for the faults of men like don't do it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (48:59.737)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (49:04.237)

edmond doesn't deserve this for a start like he's not good enough to deserve any of this attention from either of them and then for fanny to like yeah beat down mary for being a genuinely supportive and kind person in a whole sea of people who are evil it's not on the viab

Izzy (49:22.260)

i know i just i just really don't i don't see it so that was one one thing that i saw because i wish like trying to find like what is it that people see her as a villain for and then obviously there's the tom's death where she kind of says you know i kind of wish he would die and yeah that is that is pretty bad i think it's probably the worst thing that she says i mean we're going to condemn her for saying like one one pretty bad thing i don't know it is a little bit you wish your one dead

Charles Edwards Freshwater (49:46.857)

austin cancer culture

Izzy (49:52.500)

it's done that is not like that's austin's line she's like wishing people dead is just not right

Charles Edwards Freshwater (49:53.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (49:56.997)

it's not the vine i mean granted it's not ideal but as we explored earlier it would make life better for everyone else yeah he should have ritten it in a dainty note and left it somewhere by mistake and i would have been more forgivable

Izzy (50:06.900)

what's wrong with an is that she voices it that's the issue

Izzy (50:16.520)

but a manifestation wouldn't be lovely if tom was to die

Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:17.937)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:21.817)

where would have been good

Izzy (50:24.660)

oh well you know like was saying i i mean i know it's terrible to shink about but people do you have bad thoughts at times it happens you're telling me that m dare wasn't there just like you know be quite good if wickham was to pop his clogs that would really save me a lot trouble

Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:32.157)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:38.217)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:40.717)

like routinely i'm sure he was super into the idea of wickham quads colonel brandon probably wanted willowby to fall down a ditch it's like it's human nature

Izzy (50:51.960)

which elinor probably wanted willie to fall down a ditch after what you did to mary

Charles Edwards Freshwater (50:57.097)

yeah he wasn't a popular lad to

Izzy (51:00.520)

not the editor

Izzy (51:03.820)

not at the end he was not and then there was another one there was one more point i've seen kind of people saying this is potentially a reason why why mary might be a villain and that was that in her letter at the end where she's talking about you know the fact that henry runs off with maria is that she says you know this is maria's fault not henry is like maria has drawn him in

Charles Edwards Freshwater (51:25.797)


Izzy (51:33.680)

and i was like i can kind of see that because that's kind of saying what we're saying that really you shouldn't jump down the woman's throat it but then i thought about it on another stand and i thought henry single not getting any attention back from fanny even though he's tried a lot like a now as feelings funny but he's not getting anything back from her whatsoever and he potentially could end up like you know he goes to maria and she's interested in it versus maria you's got a husband in a situation in life

Charles Edwards Freshwater (51:37.437)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (51:49.097)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (51:57.997)


Izzy (52:03.540)

and she wants and she goes with henry like i don't know me i'm like i feel like henry is the lesser of the two evils he's not like he's like you need to come in you know sleep with me and run away from your husband of you know the great fortune and all of this lot like maria is set up in a position if she wasn't happy that she could be like rushworth this guy is trying to get it on with me like let's boot him out you know what me and i'm just like i can't maria

Charles Edwards Freshwater (52:05.397)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (52:24.957)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (52:28.857)

absolutely a yeah i think i mean it takes two to tango right so but arguably as you say she is already married she is in a great life position and she's throwing it all away because at he's a bit bored

Charles Edwards Freshwater (52:45.257)

like yeah i mean i guess on one part sorry

Izzy (52:46.280)

yeah and she was getting them out

Izzy (52:52.420)

no story you carry on career

Charles Edwards Freshwater (52:54.017)

i guess on one part i mean henry going straight back to her after flirting with fanny i guess that does show that he is in constant in his affections too but maybe he just wants a bit of fun but yeah i mean i guess that's him being a bilin

Izzy (53:07.060)

he did try he did try with fanny but like he even went and visited her with her family because fanny was staying with her family like in that little house and he went and sat up with them and stayed with them like why die if he didn't have to do that's quite he's putting himself out there quite yeah i think so like it's not a fancy house he's going to like he's really slowing it with them and so i think even fanny says like wow i can't believe he's come all this way in it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:16.637)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:23.597)

yeah it's quite a big thing yeah

Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:30.837)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:36.337)


Izzy (53:37.140)

again he has no idea that she's interested in edmond nobody knows that so he keeps trying he's getting absolutely nothing back

Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:41.377)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (53:44.957)

so when he moves on fair play and also we have to consider that you know she the problem with her is that he tries really hard and she's like no no no and but you know there was still that flirtation there he was still i think she does flirt with him a little bit occasionally like not on purpose but i don't know i don't think it's a clear cut kind of he's coming on to me and i don't like him it's kind of she likes the attention a little bit maybe

Izzy (54:16.300)

yeah yeah i think potentially i think why not as well like i don't have anything against fanny having feeling like it's nice to be you know looked at in somebody's taking interest in what you have to say and what you are doing i think that's very nice considering what she's got a deal with the whole life the only attention edmond gives her is literally when he wants to ask your advice of what she thinks of mary crawford

Charles Edwards Freshwater (54:20.357)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (54:36.617)

yeah exactly yeah which is usually yeahbitching about someone else or being horrible about mary that's her main interaction for

Izzy (54:47.720)

and i'm just like that that would frustrate me more not that would be nice you know strate as he kept coming to me asking for my advice but they didn't listen to anything i said because funny as like well i think there's something a bit with mary yeah i don't think she's interested in the church and i don't think she's interested in marie marrying a clergyman and edmond's like oh yes she says some funny things at times

Charles Edwards Freshwater (54:50.517)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:01.557)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:10.777)

silly mary silly hot marian she loves the church really

Izzy (55:16.980)

yeah like that is what i mean i feel like he makes weird allowances it's just super strange um and think that's on him i really do i ontralydo think it's on him but then also she kind of says it's funny fat for not marrying henry

Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:22.537)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:26.217)

it is

Izzy (55:34.320)

and i can't quite see that because i'm like well if i was funny i would have done it myself but i'm like i don't know if i can blame fanny for not doing it because nobody realized that fanny already had feelings for someone else

Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:36.917)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:42.617)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (55:46.417)

it's like i think maybe mary's frustration stem from the fact that she knew that fanny would improve her brother and stop him being a flirty heart breaker and she couldn't understand why her friend fanny friend being oportiveshe's constantly kind to and she loves her brother she loves fanny it would be a really nice match and i think the frustration is like well why why didn't this happen and now he's gone back to his old ways so i don't blame her for

saying that i mean it's not great obviously and fanny should obviously be able to choose whom she wants to marry but it's something said out of frustration again and she's always open and says what she feels and there you go

Izzy (56:29.080)

and i think edward makes a point of seeing as well like you and mary had a really good friend so for mary she's really excited about this match because she actually wants you to marry her brother because she's she actually really like is a person to think you're going to be great for henry she wants that whole thing to work out so i don't even know if it's just i think it is like frustration that she's like that could have been such a great match and now look at the mess we're all in

Charles Edwards Freshwater (56:39.837)

m hm

Charles Edwards Freshwater (56:49.077)

yeah exactly like if that could be in a really good solve will be great basically and it didn't work out and she's voicing a frustration like any human would what a villain

Izzy (57:03.200)

and on top of that it ruins her she's got no chance with edmond now that's completely out of the window there will be no scenario where they could then be together i don't think

Charles Edwards Freshwater (57:08.897)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (57:11.477)

no exactly it's like genuinely from the goodness in her heart that she wants fanny to be happy her brother to be happy she wants other people to be happy she isn't very villainous behavior in my opinion

Izzy (57:23.860)

she's like really set on people making good matches and like being happy in marriage and she obviously is really against people bringing in mistresses she's like gosh i don't want that happening to me or my friends that's terrible and to be perfectly honest with you i i've not got anything against her uncle for bringing his mistress into the house you know what why not ah you tell people what he's like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (57:26.417)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (57:33.597)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (57:41.417)

yeah yeah exactly and also again surely then maria who is becoming a mistress to henry effectively right that means he the villain and we're all just kind of going to brush it under and be like maria got led astray by henry not really like it's an active participant

Izzy (57:53.140)


Izzy (58:01.520)


Izzy (58:05.160)

i think so because she was given an out to marry henry as well she could have married well i don't know if you would have actually offered to morrow but dad gave the out didn't he said like you don't have to marry rushworth if you don't want to like he is a bit of buffoon and everybody knows it like if you want to wait for someone else i'm happy to call off the engagement which i think is a really big thing to do that's massive

Charles Edwards Freshwater (58:10.257)

no probably not

Charles Edwards Freshwater (58:13.197)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (58:17.757)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (58:21.597)

yeah big thing yeah massive i mean you could never speak to rushworth over again he's clearly a man of huge fortune and standing he may be an idiot but like imagine you're cutting off yourself from all that society by breaking that engagement and he's still offered to do that even though know he's not like the nicest guy ether but now he'd do that for his daughter and she was like it's fine it's just bad mad to me yeah

Izzy (58:45.400)

she i'm happy i'm happy with rushworth but i also then also like tries to get it on with henry join lovers vows so bad so that

Charles Edwards Freshwater (58:51.637)

yeah which is like what two weeks later like

Izzy (58:57.480)

yeah exactly this is what i mean i think it's quite clear that she's got feelings for henry fanny says to edmond she's like look i think henry julia maria this like something all going on there it's all a bit of a mess and edmond's just like oh whatever i'm obsessed with mary right now i've not got time for all that jasandthen late like you got it right funny henry villainal henry and mary both villains all along

Charles Edwards Freshwater (59:07.637)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (59:15.117)

whatever let's talk about me

Charles Edwards Freshwater (59:24.617)

but worst people with other mats they're so kind

Izzy (59:28.740)

it's like i wish they'd all never come to you know mansfield park and it's like yeah i bet i mean not like you're all having such a great time prior to that was it

Charles Edwards Freshwater (59:36.917)

exactly it's not like you're all on the brink of a mental collapse anyway like your brother is going to drink himself to death mriasgonnleave her husband regardless let's cursed times

Izzy (59:48.340)

i know i know i genuinely think it but yeah so i really struggle to change my view on there i really can't see her as a villain i really like i think she's yeah i think she stands for everything that austin so far like in her books has told her good qualities and so i really struggle to see her in reverse jenauston also makes a point of seeing now being reserved can be detrimental as well and fanny is really rise

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:00:16.377)


Izzy (01:00:18.380)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:00:19.157)

sorry you're frozen

Izzy (01:00:25.280)

i don't know her either

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:00:26.057)

i am that sorry for was for a second

Izzy (01:00:29.420)

so i was seeing that jane austin makes a point of saying that being reserved can be really detrimental and funny is really reserved

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:00:35.397)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:00:37.337)

yeah so reserved i mean as awful as say fanny lets people walk all over her because she doesn't ever speak up and all of that and that's something that henry could have potentially helped her with and made her more outgoing made her have more confidence in herself and just yeah you know she she has good attributes and she needs to push them out there and yeah i always find it really weird weird when people are like yeah fanny is like so relatable and i love her and i'm like but she's she's letting herself

be a victim and a lot of wing the hug because if you relate to that like i just feel it's not a good thing to be confident about

Izzy (01:01:09.680)

can we help can we help you

Izzy (01:01:21.640)

yeah i think it's one thing being kind of like a shy disposition and i can totally get that but it's yeah it's letting people just really walk all over you i heard someone say that maybe it's like that she can't do anything about it because she owes the family so much but i'm like that doesn't stand when henry proposes like i get marrying for love but funny really doesn't have that many options in life you know and i'm just like i think i would have taken a life with henry with money and everything in my friend mary not that she considers

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:01:25.017)

oh yeah

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:01:40.637)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:01:48.717)

yeah we could listen to harp together have coffee and i'd hate every moment of it for some reason

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:01:57.997)

she's so nice

Izzy (01:01:59.400)

now it's so bad i think in the end though jane austin doesn't really punish mary because she says you know mary recovered from it and i think eventually you know there is there is a sense that mary would go on to find somebody else i don't see why not she's got all the you know actualbutes to find somebody and so i think that's good like she's not like totally like shunned and condemned and you know often the villain's an in austin's stuff you know i don't think jane austin it is so

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:14.377)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:17.297)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:22.697)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:26.677)


Izzy (01:02:29.160)

i say this is good and this is bad i think she's like look it doesn't matter if you're got o bad like human nature is human nature and sometimes the people that are deceitful or cunning are better off sometimes or they just do well like look at los steel

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:33.437)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:02:41.137)

yeah i love lucy steele i look at willoughby even marrying for money just to keep his big house bosh done i mean yeah he may not be happy about it but it didn't turn out badly did it you know

Izzy (01:02:56.240)

no no exactly you turned out worse for people that you got involved look at poor eliza like child out wedlock all sorts yeah i think a yeah i'm glad that mary doesn't get like super punished for it in then obviously egmanlike a week later was suddenly all over all about fanny i think he's so fickle honestly really bothers me

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:03:02.057)

yeah eliza had a terrible time

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:03:11.897)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:03:18.217)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:03:20.617)

it's awful the thing that really bothers me most about the end it's like three pages from the end he's like oh my sister fanny and i get married and i might know stop calling her sister like so close like i get it if it started at the beginning and then resolved but yeah he obviously did not think of her as wife material until suddenly he just sat down and was like yeah well she's like odd to me

Izzy (01:03:32.900)


Izzy (01:03:50.460)

can you imagine if your mary craft finding out the father edmond mary is funny i could like we what

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:03:55.017)

you just like christ that is your sister sir

Izzy (01:04:00.020)

i feel like danced a bullet with this fully my god

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:04:01.897)

yeah at that point she's probably in london married to someone really cool going to parties you know she probably got the best ending for her in the end we just didn't get to read it but

Izzy (01:04:12.760)

yeah i think so i don't think actually ever could have been happy with edmond i don't think he ever would have been satisfied with a doesn't matter what she never would have been good enough and i think that's why he's like so all over funny because you can just be like oh fanny needs help all the time fanny so ill and unhealthy you know i mean it's like different whereas mary was always like i don't need your am i can walk on my own

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:04:19.617)

no i

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:04:22.857)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:04:32.097)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:04:36.377)

exactly and i think fanny is easily guided by him he could easily just be like fanny you need to dress like this fanny you need to do that and should be like okay whereas mary but like no so what basically he wants is someone to just follow his every idea

Izzy (01:04:46.920)


Izzy (01:04:52.500)

yeah i think so i think so mary would never do that that's the thing and i think again like rosin at the start that is what i think makes her a more enjoyable character for a modern audience because we prefer the characters that are a little bit more outspoken or self sufficient in like stand up for themselves and don't need this constant support from a man because like you said that's what we see from elizabeth bennett

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:18.577)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:21.497)


Izzy (01:05:22.760)

mary crawford is elizabeth bennet just with money

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:24.657)

yeah a hundred percent like i cannot see a difference between them they're both kind vivacious young women

Izzy (01:05:32.560)

i can elizabeth judge as well i can genuinely imagine her being like i think you'd be good if tom died

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:34.697)

what she's like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:38.277)

yeah exactly and every one will be like yeah live great our finally mary doesn't and i was like no you go lie mary does it and it's like sender to the gallows she's the worst yea

Izzy (01:05:43.480)

i place your opinion lizzie

Izzy (01:05:53.260)

full on villain oh my gosh bring out fanny the angel

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:05:58.057)

the angel you can't walk more than four paces without a rest

Izzy (01:06:04.860)

oh my gosh like i can't even get into the funniest whole health situation where she can't walk or do anything like that yeah not so great

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:08.037)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:12.437)

probably a scurvy to be there like yeah

Izzy (01:06:16.080)

you so because i quite understand what what the issue is and i can never get how like intent edmond is about an where he's like taking roses god it's like the woman's together

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:24.257)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:29.017)

i wasn't doing a marathon was she like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:34.097)


Izzy (01:06:37.100)

so funny is there anything else you want to add about mary crawford though

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:06:41.157)

i mean my general take away though is that she's clearly one of the best heroines and fanny is not so it should have been called mary crawford venoveljust called mary

Izzy (01:06:51.800)

uh uh

Izzy (01:06:56.640)

oh my gosh literally i can define i can definitely see that so it's not changed my opinion doing any of this research i thought maybe i'd come to it and be like i just do some some controversial stuff feel a bit weird about it but i just can't i really can't and maybe it doesn't help that i'm not a massive fan of fanny either but i have always seen fanny's jealousy towards mary

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:07:09.777)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:07:14.177)

no thing

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:07:18.877)

yeah it's interesting actalybecause when i last re read it last year and i liked fanny more than i had previously because maybe i'm just getting older and more like poor fanny but you're right i think i hadn't really picked up on this extreme kind of framing that she does and i think she is manipulative i genuinely think that she manipulates verde by being like mary is awful and there is no evidence as we've discussed

gone for it all mary if anything is quite a caring and nice young woman that's it fanny is a villain

Izzy (01:07:57.680)

it was the proof it was funny now this is literally the my hurry past our episode like funny i wither okay i'm just i'm just telling you she's got she's got that she's couldn't telling you always by thing but i'm telling you she's got this jealousy and this cuddingshe's

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:06.777)

hundred percent

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:09.817)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:14.877)

let's poor me i can't walk five

Izzy (01:08:18.680)

and i kind of love that when she's lived up there with an s just like okay the go with mary she's like i can't believe he's left me

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:22.676)

yes would you ever leave me i'm so entertaining to be with

Izzy (01:08:31.460)

it's so funny and mary is just like i can't sit around all day i need to be walking like

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:36.017)

exactly mary's got stuff to do you know

Izzy (01:08:40.639)

got alive to live she's got she's got to entertain herself i love it though and i always live chatting to you about these things because i feel ike we always have such a similar opinion on it was she's so funny

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:45.937)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:50.397)

maybe we're the villains of mansvile park

Izzy (01:08:55.440)

maybe realite always seem to take sympathetic approaches to the more to the villainous characters i mean you more than me you was like lucy field and there for you know what you're doing

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:08:57.037)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:09:01.077)

and oh my gosh

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:09:06.437)

i mean to be there though good honor had limited options and you had a lot of fun go fer

Izzy (01:09:14.000)

i really blows her mind that like she in terms of like books in like in an academic sense she's meant to be like not very intelligent and like literate book god is she socially save well she knows that was a lie manipulated situation

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:09:24.017)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:09:26.937)

and absolutely the thing is at the end of the day you're put in this place to make the best situation for yourself right she managed it and at least you didn't really actually hurt anyone at the end if you think about it because he wanted to marry robert anyone like no one it's fine she got her yeah

Izzy (01:09:43.000)


Izzy (01:09:45.480)

that's true and she knew eleanor wanted to edward so you know that works out i guess the thing that was the bad thing is where she was like with the carriage and she was like tell them that i'm married to paris and then everyone thinks that no

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:09:55.137)

yeah i mean that was an energy fairplaylike she is obviously not good

Izzy (01:10:04.360)

yeah but there's a thing like mary doesn't do anything like that so we're signing it mary is not a villain okay i look for some one to come forward they'll let us know what you think like say you know if you think mary is a villain tell us why because we can always like re address that you know something really stands out where we can reconsider maybe

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:08.197)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:10.717)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:23.237)

yeah i definitely think about it

Izzy (01:10:27.660)

but i honestly had the best time do you want to let everybody know where they can find you after the podcast episode

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:32.797)

sure yeah i mean you can find me on instagram at the book boy and that's about it really so easy

Izzy (01:10:39.780)

yeah absolutely and also i will take our previous episode as well because that was such a fun one to do and to figure out like who was wealthy and who wasn't and how like money works back then like who could inherit more and yeah that was such a great episode to do i loved researching that one

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:45.257)


Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:10:56.937)

great fun and i always have such fun talking to you so love it

Izzy (01:11:00.900)

i know i'm sure you'll be back you'll be back we'll do another one

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:11:02.357)

absolutely we'll save another villain from the scorn maybe isabella let's do it

Izzy (01:11:09.760)

let's do will save yet isabella redeemed

Charles Edwards Freshwater (01:11:13.697)

i mean at will be a tough one she is awful but

Izzy (01:11:16.740)


Izzy (01:11:19.860)

is everything from us today and i will see you in another episode

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